Twitter Spaces Transcript: Orangepilling Politicians with Dennis Porter

Synopsis:

Dennis Porter, Co-Founder and Chairman of the Satoshi Action Fund, joins Will Szamosszegi and Kent Halliburton to discuss his mission to persuade politicians across the United States that Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining deserve their political support. Dennis explains the strategies that he employs when speaking with politicians, and he offers advice about what each and every citizen can do in the fight to orangepill politicians.

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Link to Audio: 

https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1OwxWwZDkwQxQ

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Transcript:

Logan Chipkin:               Hey everyone. Logan here. How's everyone doing? If everyone's having a good day, maybe gimme a thumbs up or a clap or something. See that everyone's going well, there we go. Thanks, Harry. Glad to hear that. Or I guess see that in this case?

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, exactly. I love that emoji. Yeah, this is gonna be a fun conversation with Dennis Porter. I think we're gonna talk a little bit about the growing narrative around Bitcoin mining and energy and the environment but we're going to spend the majority of the time talking about Dennis's forays into orange peeling politicians. And I'm sure he'll have plenty of kind of wisdom that he's built up that he would like to share. Personally, I am dying to know if the strategy differs, whether he's talking to a Democrat or a Republican. My guess would be it does but I could also see the counter-argument of just kind of here's why Bitcoin is the next revolutionary technology. Take it or leave it. But I know personally, I don't know if any of you experienced this, but it's useful to take into account who you're talking to. So if you're talking to, let's say a left progressive and they have certain values, then you really wanna explain why Bitcoin is pursuant to those values. And then same thing with conservatives. So conservatives, they wanna curb the power of government. Well, Bitcoin does that. Left wingers wanna reduce inequality. Well, Bitcoin does that too, for example. But we'll see what Dennis has to say. He certainly has more experience orange peeling politicians than I do.

Logan Chipkin:               Hey, Kent, I see Dennis is here. Dennis, I'm about to invite you to speak, Kent. I see you also requested. One moment, add a speaker. One sec.

Speaker 2:               All

Logan Chipkin:               Right. All right. Kent, are you with

Kent Halliburton:               Us? I am Logan. Thank you.

Logan Chipkin:               Excellent. Thank you for joining. I see Dennis is also here Dennis Porter. Just to confirm, can you please say a couple words just so we can hear you, and then we'll get the ball rolling.

Dennis Porter:               Yep, I'm here, guys. Looking forward to it.

Logan Chipkin:               Excellent, Excellent lot. And I see we have Will here, Will Sam Zagi is the CEO and founder of SaaS Mining. So we'll go ahead and bring him up and then we'll go ahead and get started.

Kent Halliburton:               And before we do, I think Logan, it would be great if you could introduce us since you are the official host of our Twitter spaces these days. So Logan has been head of content, he's got a background as an author and just writes the most amazing articles for us. Definitely recommend tracking our blog if you don't ready. But Logan, you wanna say a few words and introduce yourself to the audience since we haven't done that officially. And I'm embarrassed that we haven't since you've done such an excellent job with this so far.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate the kind words Kent. Yeah, my name is Logan Chikin. I'm the content manager, if you like, for SaaS mining. Like Kent said I have a long history and background in writing all sorts of stuff, and I've been into kind of economics and Bitcoin and politics for a long while. So I've really been enjoying just doing all sorts of deep dives for the size mining team from kind of a Bitcoin mining angle, from an energy angle, from a political repercussions angle. So that's basically me in a nutshell. And so Kent, why don't we go ahead and let's introduce Dennis first and then Kent and will introduce you quickly. So Dennis you're the CEO and co-founder of the Satoshi Action Fund, which we're definitely going to get into. And you're kind of on this mission to orangeville as many politicians as possible. So I wonder if you could just briefly introduce yourself to the audience here.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, thank you guys for having me on. Really looking forward to this conversation. As you stated, you know, ceo, co-founder Satoshi Action Fund background, been in Bitcoin since 2017, have a background in politics and grassroots organization including campaign management as well. So spent a lot of time around elected officials and with organizations that are focused on changing policy and trying to shift the policy narratives. Kind of grew up also really with my father being a very big political guy, just listening to talk radio all the time, and really kind of immersing myself in the different ways that people approach the political space. Fortunate now to have my own political organization that focuses on educating policy makers and regulators on the benefits of Bitcoin and bitcoin mining. We also turn around and craft public policy to be able to help guide the conversation and help them attract Bitcoin mining to their state in a safe and sustainable way. But really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you guys for having me up here. And I'm excited to talk about some of the tips and tricks that I've learned on how to have conversations with policy makers and regulators that are productive and lead towards good outcomes.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah look, I was telling the crowd, I think there's gonna be a lot of wisdom to be gained in this conversation. So before we get into all that, Kent, do you wanna say a couple words about who you are?

Kent Halliburton:               Yeah, absolutely. So I come from a background in renewable energy. That was the first half of my career working in the solar energy industry and at some pretty interesting levels. So I was overseeing both sales and software operations for an organization building rooftop solar systems across nine different states. We were publicly traded growing via mergers and acquisitions, and we're competing a lot with Solar City actually at that point in time. And I made the transition to Bitcoin mining primarily because I saw that solar energy and bitcoin mining was gonna collide. And so it's quite interesting how similar the two industries are actually both being disruptive, decentralized, and distributed technologies. But I have been enjoying helping to build the internal team and operations for SaaS mining here with Will

Will Szamosszegi:               And Ken, I am very grateful to be working side by side with both you and Logan and Dennis Men. I am, I've been so excited for this conversation. I know that we've been going back and forth for a while on Twitter. I love following your work and yeah, I mean, I'm excited to sit here and listen in on this conversation and play a small role in it. So I mean with that, I'll pass it right back off to you, Logan.

Logan Chipkin:               Thanks, Will. Yeah, so you've heard a couple dentists, you kind of alluded to it, and Kent, you certainly did in your background about clean energy, a renewable future and how Bitcoin and bitcoin mining connect with those. And I think that'll eventually connect with dentists, some of your thoughts on how to orange peel certain politicians. So before we get into how to orange peel politicians proper, I saw really, I recommend everyone watch your round table with Daniel Batten and Troy Cross and others. And I'm wondering, has your strategy on orange peeling politicians at all changed since you've kind of started looking into this emerging narrative that Bitcoin mining is really good for humanities relationship with energy and is good for our impact on the climate?

Dennis Porter:               Oh yeah. I mean, it's my approach to the way I engage with policy makers on this issue has changed dramatically over the last year, year and a half. I spent most of my time in the early days really trying to explain the benefits of Bitcoin, the asset and the potential that it has for people in disenfranchised communities. Also, for those that have kind of been left outside of the banking sector and as a asset that can't be debased, I have had success with that. I think there is quite a few people that are interested in that conversation and I do still use that as a tool in my tool bag, but I've added quite a few different tools to the tool bag and we can get into those various tools and almost like a, Hey, I tried to break it down in an easy medium and difficult approach for this conversation.

Dennis Porter:               People said they were really interested in the idea of how to do this stuff. And so I've kind of broken it down into different approaches and also kind of a different approach between state and federal as well. There's a slight difference there. But yeah, the energy side of things, I've really grown my understanding quite dramatically on energy and how Bitcoin mining will play a role in the energy transition that we are all undergoing currently. And that's a really important thing to understand for policy makers because if you're trying to promote Bitcoin, you're inherently going to be promoting proof of work. And proof of work uses quite a bit of energy. And if you don't have an answer for the energy consumption part of the conversation, if you don't have a way to talk to policy makers that is productive, when you're talking about energy and you're talking about renewables and you're talking about fossil fuels, you're talking about how Bitcoin mining can participate in the grid.

Dennis Porter:               It, it's really hampering your chances of building a successful effort to get those policy makers to move the right direction. Now, there are multiple tactics that you can use in order to help get a policy maker maker to kind of see the benefits of Bitcoin or Bitcoin mining, but that's gonna be one of the biggest ones because even if you don't care about the environment, even if you are someone who doesn't believe that climate is an issue, or the changing climate is a problem, or maybe you recognize it's an issue and you don't think there's much we can do about it, having an answer for that conversation and knowing how Bitcoin can participate in aligning with those people's values that do care about it is really critical for convincing policy makers that do care about this issue. But all, even for those policy makers that don't, they are thinking in the back of their head, But is this thing gonna get all the environmentalists attacking me?

Dennis Porter:               Am I gonna be fighting every day of my life to survive trying to pass this piece of policy with environmentalists knocking down my door? It's not something most policy want makers want, whether I go to red states or blue states, it doesn't matter. They all are thinking about how Bitcoin mining can impact energy and how Bitcoin mining can impact renewables. And when I talk to them about those issues, they are most oftentimes don't understand that Bitcoin mining can impact it in a positive way. They always have some sort of negative thought in their mind with regards to Bitcoin mining and those topics. And so having that one to talk about, even if you can just talk about it in a very mild manner, you don't know a lot, you should always try to have at least a little bit of knowledge about it so that you can kind of overcome those roadblocks because the environment and talking about energy is a huge topic right now for a lot of policy makers. And if you don't have any answer for it, most likely the door will probably be closed on future conversations.

Logan Chipkin:               So yeah, I totally hear your point about in a democracy, the politicians are always going to be thinking, which special interest group is going to hop on my back if I follow, if I endorse a certain technology, whatever it is. So in that light, I already mentioned kind of let's say Bitcoin mining is good for the environment type people like Troy Cross and Daniel Baton. So do you see in this battle for Bitcoin, for lack of a better phrase, they are pushing in the culture for environmentalists to get on board and then you are pushing for the politicians to get on board. Is that how you see the different kind of pieces playing their roles?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, when I met Troy, I mean, he was the one who I think told me he had some sort of interesting takes on the environment, and I hadn't ever met him before, even though we live in the same city, it was during the pandemic we ended up meeting over Zoom Portland, Oregon, where we're both from was pretty locked down. So even if we wanted to meet, there would be nowhere to meet at. So we met over Zoom and he told me about some of his ideas and his views on an issue which Bitcoiners had historically had difficulty overcoming. Most of the time it's like the answer is, screw you, we can use the energy, it doesn't matter. Or at the time back then was kind of this attitude of Christmas lights, well use a lot of energy too. And comparing Bitcoin mining to the energy consumed by the banking sector, which are all valid arguments.

Dennis Porter:               I'm not gonna knock those arguments, but they're just not very effective for convincing environmentalists to get on board with Bitcoin mining. I would say that the biggest and best arguments are getting them on board with Bitcoin mining is really getting into how Bitcoin can enhance renewables. That's a key area that Satoshi Action Fund focuses on. But going back to Troy and going back to just the difference between how we approach things. Yeah, I think that Troy and the others do we have Jason in the audience we've got Margo there's a bunch other Daniel Batton that are just aggressively trying to, including Kent and SAS and you guys up here, right, moving the right direction on convincing environmentalists that Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining can be good for the planet. I would say that's one of the most important conversations that we're having today. A lot of, and a lot of Bitcoiners gonna kind of get pissed at you guys and they try to tell you to stop promoting Bitcoin in this way and that we shouldn't be concerned about whether Bitcoin mining impacts the environment in a positive or negative direction.

Dennis Porter:               But ultimately I think it's the most important conversation we can be having. As you mentioned earlier, well entrenched people that are ideologically entrenched, morally entrenched, economically entrenched tend to be very politically active. And I would say that environmentalists are one of the most politically active groups that you could engage with in the political space today. And I think that it's imperative that if the truth aligns and the physics align, that we should be telling environmentalists that Bitcoin mining does align with their values. So the people up on the stage and including Troy Cross, Daniel Batton and a number of other environmentalists, I couldn't be more excited about the wave of conversations that are occurring across the Bitcoin space. When I met Troy, he was, I didn't know an environmentalist that was kind of thinking about how Bitcoin mining could be seen as something as positive for their movement.

Dennis Porter:               And I think that once I recognized how far he had come on the conversation, it really, really made me extremely bullish because I noticed and realized that if it's possible with Troy, someone who actually, he'll tell you his story, he questioned whether he should continue to participate in Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining because of the potential energy problems that it could cause, and was able to find a way through that and was able to find a way to figure out how Bitcoin mining could align and Bitcoin could align with his values. But once I noticed that and I saw the change that had occurred for him it was not very long after that I started to realize that we don't need to fight the environmentalists. We don't need to convince people that the energy consumption as a comparison to the banking sector is kind of equal or better.

Dennis Porter:               We should start trying to convince people that Bitcoin mining is actually very pro environment, that it is something that if we are communicating responsibly and if we're communicating with people in a way that aligns with their values, they can start to see that this is a tool for them to advance the things that they wanna see happen in the world. And the best part is it's done in a way where there's no government incentives, there is, there's no big stick, there's no tax breaks, it's just pure free market incentives that are pushing environmentalists towards Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. And also it doesn't impact the values or changed the protocol in any way because we all have seen some of the attempts in the past, blood coins or green coins or whatever and breaking the fungibility of Bitcoin that way or trying to, is this a nonstarter for myself and many other Bitcoiners as well as those on the environmental side that understand really understand Bitcoin and also understand the need to protect the environment.

Dennis Porter:               So I'll pause there, but really Troy and those that are moving the needle on this issue, to me it's some of the most important work that can be done in the space because we need those people on our side. Bitcoin is for everybody. So we need the environmentalists because the next big fight is much more dangerous and perilous than fighting with environmentalists even though they tend to be one of the most powerful political groups. The next big fight is fighting with the people that wanna control the financial rails of the world. And they haven't even shown a single card yet. They're just willing to sit back and let us fight the Bitcoiners, fight the environmentalists. They think that's an easy win because the environmentalists tend to never lose. And that another reason why we want them on our side, if we can do so, right, We're not lying, we're not making things up, we're not spinning false narratives.

Dennis Porter:               This is truth like Bitcoin mining helps clean up the environment, it helps mitigate methane. Bitcoin mining helps perform demand and frequency response for the grid, which is good for renewables. And renewables actually are struggling right now. Renewables need more demand response customers. The IEA says we need 500 gigawatts of demand response for renewables to continue their growth. And you should like that. People that don't like renewables, you should like that too because they're not gonna stop building renewables. And if we don't start to build, renew renewables alongside what is Bitcoin mining, then we will have a problem because renewables do cause problems for the grid and those problems can be solved through Bitcoin mining. So I'm really excited about the potential to marry the Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining world with the environmental world. And I, I'm pretty bullish on it happening over the next five years could happen sooner, especially if the Bitcoin network turns CO2 or carbon negative equivalent. That would be huge for us.

Kent Halliburton:               It absolutely would be. Dennis and I just wanna add onto a bunch of a few different points that you mentioned there, because the environmental community, it's actually ironic. I consider myself an environmentalist and it's why I got into the solar industry to begin with, but I've never been able to resolve myself with of top down directives versus market driven approaches. I just never was a fan of the top down policies, especially dealing with so many subsidies in the solar industry. As much as I think Bitcoiners may not love subsidies, it's a pain for the solar industry as well to survive on them because every time they change, it means your business model actually has to change. And that's really hard to do. In fact, people in the solar industry laughingly call the solar industry the solar coaster because the volatility somewhat mimics actually the price action of Bitcoin.

Kent Halliburton:               I mean, it's an extremely difficult thin margin business to be in, but the people that are there are deeply passionate about it because they care about the environment in almost the exact same way that Bitcoiners care about Bitcoin itself. And I came into Bitcoin personally my journey was because I saw that Bitcoin was gonna be good for the environment, but I came at it from the realization that our money was broken and by having sound or money, we were gonna defer savings and that was going to reduce consumption. And it was really our consumption that was the problem. And then I realized, hey, by the way, the solar cost curves are gonna make solar the cheapest energy form in the not so distant future. And Bitcoin wants the cheapest energy for mining. So these two are gonna collide. So not only is it gonna reduce conspicuous consumption, but it's also going to reduce our not reduce, excuse me, but it's also gonna drive the adoption of renewables.

Kent Halliburton:               So this is a win-win across so many different facets. And I think like were saying there, Dennis, about the deep money, the deep pockets sort of waiting for the environmental is to root out the bitcoiners. I think what they're not counting on is that the Bitcoiners are gonna flip the environmentalists and then we're gonna have two very passionate groups uniting here. And it seems all but inevitable that that's going to happen because there may be some leading environmentalists out there that have been co-opted and they're pushing narratives because their incentives are aligned such that their organizations are funded by certain individuals that they're gonna push antibi Bitcoin agendas, but their audiences won't. And that's why we have to continue to push back on the energy fund and educate the audiences of these places because eventually the environmental community is not dumb and they will listen to reason and over a long enough period of time, the more that we open these doors towards that community, the more we're gonna come in.

Kent Halliburton:               So I really appreciate the work that you're doing to help drive that message. And I think it's incumbent on all of us within the US institution to help build the social layer for Bitcoin itself because if it gets co-opted by the right or the left, it becomes a political football. And I think that's the most dangerous position for Bitcoin to be in. Now does that hurt the network itself? No, but it hurts adoption in the US and a lot of us are building our companies in the US with the idea that US can be a bastion for all the things that were put into constitution by our for fore bears, right? So anyway, that's a long winded way of saying I appreciate the work that you're doing, Dennis to orange pill our politicians out there and really looking to learn from you on how you're going about doing that. Cause I think that's knowledge that should spread.

Dennis Porter:               One thing you said there that was super, well, two things you said there that were really important, but the biggest one was that when you can wed or marry the two groups there, politics is one by what I would call ideological groups especially in the United States. Our system is built for really small, very entrenched ideological groups. And if you are positioning Bitcoin, which ultimately in the end of the day, the end the decade or 10, 20, 30 years might be a bigger, more powerful group than the environmental group or the environmental wing. But if you don't have to fight that group and instead you can be allies in your efforts, you should be doing everything possible to do that. I mean it's very art of war type of approach. We are not actually enemies. In fact, if anything we are massive allies in our desire to see a better world.

Dennis Porter:               We have our concern about where we're going with the way that energy markets are ran. We have both of our concerns about the way that conspicuous consumption has really led to a world where folks are not saving their money and also are damaging the planet. These are very mutually shared concerns. And we might have different reasons, which is going into, if we jump skip into kind of how we orange peel politicians like everybody has at their heart and their core different reasons why they're doing something like most Bitcoiners don't even agree on their core reason why they decided to fight for this issue. Now they might have adopted a lot of other things along the way, but this is really common on an issue. You'll find the thing that got you fired up and you'll start to study that issue and start to research it and you'll find other things where you're like, Oh wow, that's really impactful.

Dennis Porter:               When I first found Bitcoin, the big thing that really started to draw me in was when I started listening to Andrea Antonopoulos and I have always had an issue with money in the political space in that way that it corrupts the political space. And when he started talking about how corrupt the money was, it was just like, oh, this is the real reason. I thought it was that we needed to overturn Citizens United and get big companies outta politics and get the money outta politics so the representatives would equally represent their constituencies and not these large special interests and corporations. Well that's true to some extent, but the worst part of it all really is the fact that they have an unlimited money printer and then they don't need to actually fix any of the problems. They can just turn the unlimited money printer on whenever they want.

Dennis Porter:               And so when I started to learn about these things, that's what got me very excited about Bitcoin. But since then I've found other reasons to become very supportive of Bitcoin. And if we jump into how to orange pill politicians, one of the ways that you can do that is finding out what their main reason for getting into politics was in the first place. Because Bitcoin is so good at touching a broad range of issu issues, typically, not always. I've definitely run into times when this strategy doesn't work, but you can approach pretty much anyone and ask them a question and this is key. Oftentimes we as Bitcoiners make the mistake of people saying, Oh, why should I like Bitcoin? And then the Bitcoin or turns around and tells them all the reasons why they like Bitcoin and why they love Bitcoin and why it's important.

Dennis Porter:               The opposite approach or the better approach in my opinion, is to turn around and ask them questions and figure out what's important to them. Because if you don't know what's important to them as an individual, you're not gonna be able to target the root of why Bitcoin will matter to them. And again, this won't work for everyone. I had a politician, I will, former a politician, he's got like 600,000 followers on Twitter right now. So he's definitely popular, but he's not an office currently anymore. But I sat down with him and he was telling me, I asked him, What, what's important to you? Why'd get into politics? And he was like, Well, it's cuz the process is messed up. You got into this whole very just analytical thing about how we need to get rid of, we need to totally change the process, get rid of the cameras and out of outta politics, which probably would come as a long tail result of Bitcoin, but it was hard to make the comparison.

Dennis Porter:               So again, this strategy will not always work, but it tends to work very well if you can figure out if someone has issues with the way that people were excluded from the banking sector, maybe someone jumped into the political space because they were concerned about the environment, maybe they jumped into the political space because they were concerned about disenfranchised communities. You can parallel Bitcoin to any of those things. That's very easy to do if you know how to do it. And I would say that that's probably the expert level of how to convince people to be Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining on the political space because love them or hate them. These politicians that we typically tend to disdain, many of them, most of them got into politics because they wanted to do something good for their community. Oftentimes the reason why they become something that is unrecognizable from where they were before is be somewhat because of the fiat system that we live in because of the corrupt incentives that we have.

Dennis Porter:               But if you're able to tap into some of those original reasons why they got engaged it, it's very effective, extremely effective. In fact for orange peeling politicians or really anybody for that matter but politicians, these are passionate people, you have to remember this they're not actors. People always try to make 'em out. These people are actors and they're fake. They tend to just be very passionate about what they believe in and the incentives kind of corrupt where they actually align their viewpoints, but get 'em 'em all the way back to that original reason. Why are you so passionate? What's the thing? What's the hill that you'll die on? And that tends to be a really great good place to start. There's a couple other easier tactics, which we can get into in a second, but I'll stop there and see if maybe Kent or SA or anyone else has some input on that.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, Dennis <laugh>, as I was listening to you there, it sounds like you really cracked the code in a big way. And I mean I hadn't even thought about it putting it that way in the sense that everyone in some way can relate to this technology, can relate to Bitcoin, can relate to the issues that Bitcoin solves. And so the magic bullet in many ways is just figuring out, rather than trying to go and shove your beliefs or views down someone's throat, really finding out what they care about and figuring out, hey, at the end of the day we're all on the same side. I think that that's such a beautiful concept. And what's incredible about Bitcoin is it unites people in ways that they don't even realize it. You start learning about all these other different types of, for example, you'll go down the rabbit hole of sound money of monetary how the money actually works, how values transferred in society and then before it, you're an advocate for this system that has brought you down so many other areas of belief and you realize that at the end of the day it just humanizes you in many ways.

Will Szamosszegi:               And so I think that when you're talking about politicians and how the entire system today works, I'm curious as to what some of these other things that you're noticing are and what you believe that the current climate actually looks like. Because I feel like it's very difficult to really understand what's going on and what the landscape looks like unless you're actually in those conversations. And I think that you've done incredible job really bringing a lot of these conversations to the forefront and speaking with different politicians and finding out, okay, how do we go and bring this very, very important group of people onto the side of humanity and onto the side of truth and on the side of Bitcoin?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, so I would say that there's a reason why Satoshi Action Fund is so highly focused on Bitcoin mining. I feel like it is. I don't is I know it is one of the quickest and easiest routes to a level of Bitcoin adoption in the United States that we probably won't achieve through other means. Oftentimes folks try to encourage those that are around them to own and hold Bitcoin and that the reason for doing so is because the dollar is essentially a scam or the fiat is gonna collapse. I mean, that's a very fear based approach. And also people tend to just not react to that because aside from it being fear based, you're really trying to convince people that they've just been lied to their whole lives. Most people will not accept that reality. I've been a Christian, I've been a religious person trying to convince people to be religious.

Dennis Porter:               I've not been a religious person trying to convince people to not be religious. You have to view it in the same light if you're trying to convince someone that their belief set or the viewpoints that they have that are built on top of a framework. In my case when I'm explaining it was a religious example but the other example is the money. If all the money is a lie, you're really shattering their entire worldview. And some people can handle that conversation, but most people can't. And so I've avoided really trying to convince people in western societies and even in, to be honest, even in other countries like third world countries, my parents have lived in El Salvador for over a decade and the people there still don't have an idea any clue why they should hold Bitcoin. It's it, it's very a abstract for people don't hard for them to wrap their brains around.

Dennis Porter:               So going back to the point, I just tend to avoid that conversation very much in the political space. I try to look for why they are very into politics, why they ran originally was one way that I started doing it. But now I'm highly focused on Bitcoin mining because bitcoin mining is a very easy pitch at Satoshi Action fund. And by the way, I don't know if you guys are interested, but up top, I put a link to our telegram that we just launched. We'll be launching a newsletter to as well soon. But up top there's a link to our telegram that we just opened up for Satoshi Action Fund. If you're interested in kind of staying up to date with what we're doing on the state level, if you're interested in engaging with some of the folks, which I'm, I'm gonna get all of our advisory members in there too here soon.

Dennis Porter:               So we've got a bunch of 'em 18 advisory members from all of our different spectrums of the space, but you can join that telegram group. But going back to the point was that Bitcoin mining is a very easy pitch to state policy makers and regulators. I walk in and I say, Bitcoin mining has the potential to bring high paying jobs, local investment, it can stabilize the grid, clean up the environment and enhance renewables and their ears perk up. They're like, Wait a minute, what? I didn't know Bitcoin mining can do that. I'm like, Yes, it can. How? And I show them and then I turn right around and I'm like, Okay, now that you're a super big Bitcoin fan like me Bitcoin mining fan here is some of the policies that you can introduce in order to bring your Stu state the right direction. I would say that this is relatively the easiest approach to Trojan horsing Bitcoin into western societies because they all want high paying jobs, they all want local investment, they all want grid stability, they all wanna clean up the environment and they all want to enhance renewables.

Dennis Porter:               So you're not finding anything there that anyone would disagree with. On the policy front it's very effective and if you're the type of person who is not a great educator or communicator we have a one pager that we've produced. If you're interested in that, I'll put it in the telegram here in a second. It basically covers all the benefits of Bitcoin mining really shows people step by step all the ar, various ways that Bitcoin mining can help solve these issues or some of the more targeted issues that it can help solve and why it's good for the grid. But we also have summaries and on some of our model policy that we're building as well for these guys. But if you're not a big educator, give 'em the one pager and then send 'em our way and we'll take care of the rest, right? Cuz that's really why Satoshi Action Fund exists. We're here to help advance bitcoin mining and we'll willing to have conversations with anybody from any state that is interested in moving the right direction. Obviously we also do provincial stuff in Canada as well, but we're an American, so we're pretty US focus for now.

Dennis Porter:               I'll put that one pager up there in the telegram right now while if someone else wants to jump in and chime in for a second.

Kent Halliburton:               Yeah, Dennis, I think there's an old adage when I was uhtraining sales people that you gotta meet people where they're at, not where you want them to be. And I think that's exactly what you're describing here when you talk about how you're Trojan horsing the politicians because you are looking at what their incentives are and you're saying, Hey, you're trying to win votes and to win votes, you need to provide jobs and a lot of voters care about the environment and the grid and having stable power. So let's talk about mining and how it can do all that for you locally. And so I think that's just such a brilliant winning strategy that I'm not surprised to see how many meetings you're getting across the country as I'm tracking your posts on Twitter and it's just incredible to see the number of politicians you're meeting with and the responses that you're receiving from these politicians.

Kent Halliburton:               So again, I think you're really doing Satoshi's work out there right now driving the political conversation. And I'm glad that we've got you on stage here spreading this. So hopefully more of us will take up that mantle and speak to our local politicians because the sooner that we help them to see the light the sooner it is that we are gonna see it accepted Bitcoin accepted across the board. And that is a much more powerful way to do it through positive incentive is then than going the route of fear and the more libertarian values, whether you hold those or not, we should win the war doing what works and not what we like and think and believe as much. And that's not to say that I don't have strong libertarian leanings, it's just, hey, we're in a dog fight out there and we need people to wake up to the reality, but let's do it using carrots not sticks.

Dennis Porter:               And as someone who is really the ultimate pragmatist and very much I would consider myself to be in the middle, like I said, I've been religious, I've been a Democrat, I've been a Republican, I've been voting both ways, been an independent. So I've seen all perspectives in all camps and I really now just at where I am in my life, even previous to Bitcoin, was very much consider myself to be a centrist. I would say Bitcoin has made me the ultimate centrist in us in some ways. And there's a huge thing that's occurring, which is that Bitcoin kind of forces us to come together and have a conversation because we all agree on the money and we have to come together and base our conversations around that starting point. Right now the money is a weapon. So in DC they use the money against each other literally.

Dennis Porter:               And it's part of the reason why winning in DC and why winning federal offices, it seems like a do or die type of situation and why we're so divisive on the federal side. The states are, yeah, certainly there's some division in the states. I think the federal side trickles in because of the money printer. They, the money printer pushes a lot of money towards the state, towards or away from the states. But really there's a reason why when your side loses in DC you feel like it's the end of the world because the power that is handed to them through the money printer and various other positions that are included along with winning the federal side is so powerful that it is quite a tragic loss. And if we are able to break down that money printer or at least reduce its significance, then we'll start to see a world where there's a lot more collaboration.

Dennis Porter:               And I think we'll start to see a world where people become kind of less concerned over who's in office. I mean decades ago it mattered, but today it's like if you lose, I mean it is such a big loss because we've really turned the money printer all the way up. It's at max capacity and it's headed towards a world where folks are willing to use the money printer so much that they're willing to break the money printer. And that's when really bad things start to happen. So hopefully we can avoid that situation. Hopefully we can reduce the dependence on the money printer for policies for politicians achieving their means because it is a very dangerous and ultimately a civilization breaking way of approaching your goals. Because we've seen this happen before many, many times when the money printer gets abused aggressively, societies collapse, war happens.

Dennis Porter:               You know, don't need to look much further back than Rome. Rome debase their currency all the way down to the point where there was almost like no actual silver content in the coins they were issuing and the soldiers were unwilling to fight for money that was worthless. So large militarized border collapsed. You could see what happened with the African nations when the Europeans came south and they base the glass agro beads that those nations were using cuz they had kind of primitive glass making abilities. The Europeans had advanced glass making abilities came down, flooded the market so much show that people thought they were gaining incredible wealth and actually sold themselves into slavery because they thought they were getting so much money. Obviously that led to a massive acceleration in the transatlantic slave trade, which is probably one of the worst human tragedies in recorded history.

Dennis Porter:               Then you also have Nazi Germany, same kind of thing, right? Printing to infinity, going to war, pointing the finger, killing millions of people one of the worst atrocities as well in human history. And all of these things kind of happen around when we break the money. And so part of me is not only trying to make sure that the United States adopts Bitcoin mining, but the other side of this whole conversation is trying to make sure that the United States doesn't break its money printer. Because if it does, really, really bad things are gonna happen. And some of us bitcoiners kind of sit around and they say, Oh well we'll let it burn. I don't think you really understand what happens when it burns. I don't really think people have an appreciation where it happens to civilization in society when the money printer breaks, especially the money printer like Rome collapsed it never recovered.

Dennis Porter:               Millions of people's, millions of people's lives were shoved around and millions of people died. That situation will be accelerated dramatically in the United States, especially as not only are we the big superpower, but everybody is using our money. The dollar is the basis for everything. And I'm not saying that we're not gonna have a turbulent time, but if we get to a world where the world is actually, the money printer breaks and the dollar collapses to nothing, your children's children will have to live with those ramifications, not just your life but generations to come will deal with the rectifications of the money printer breaking. And I don't think we want that to happen. So I wanna do everything possible to make sure the United States has the right direction on Bitcoin and I think Bitcoin mining is the one way we start that conversation.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, very well said Dennis. I just wanna say we have about 20 minutes left with Dennis. I definitely want to open it up to the audience, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to raise your hand. But before we get to the audience questions, Dennis, I've one last question. You had alluded to the fact that your strategy when approaching state level politicians in the United States versus federal politicians is different. I wonder if you could just elaborate on that cuz I wouldn't have thought that kind of in my naive perspective. Obviously I don't have the experience you have, so could you please explain what that difference is and why it matters?

Dennis Porter:               Could you say the question again? I broke up for a second.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, of course. Can you hear me now? Yeah,

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, I got you.

Logan Chipkin:               So basically why is there a strategic difference when you approach state level politicians versus federal and how does that difference manifest in your approach?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, so it's a lot easier to convince states on the Bitcoin mining issue for a couple of reasons. One is that state policy makers tend to be a lot more concerned about what they can bring home to their state. They tend to be a lot more concerned about the positive impact that they can have on their communities whether that be through jobs, local investment, some of the other things that I highlighted that Bitcoin mining can deliver. And so it's a very simple kind of salient like pro job, pro economy, pro environment conversation, pro-energy conversation. State policy makers are very attuned to those types of conversations. And so I typically avoid any sort of like, Oh, why did you get into politics? What it makes you passionate? I typically just jump right into talking about those issues. Also, specifically on the state side, many people don't know this, but on the state side is where all the energy policy occurs.

Dennis Porter:               Every state has its own public utility commission and almost every state controls their oil and gas industry. So methane from oil and gas grid, electricity from renewables, from other types of generation, all of that is being regulated at the state level. Now the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission FE does have some ways where it gets involved, but typically they don't have a lot there. There's not a lot that they can do to really get in the way of Bitcoin mining. In fact, FE and some of the mandates they've created, including their mandate for just compensation on demand and frequency response has been, is helpful for bitcoin mining because for instance, in the case of Idaho, we got involved in a rate case in Idaho. Public Utility Commissions will do these rate cases where if someone wants to change their rate design or create a new rate, they have to go to the public utility commission.

Dennis Porter:               In this case Idaho Power Rug poll or wanted to rug poll a rate from the minors in their state. This new rate that they wanted to design would force Bitcoin minors to participate in demand response without just compensation. So Satoshi Action Fund got involved in that case also bit mine. And a friend of mine from that company, Jay got involved in the case pushed back. Jay did some incredible work, very proud of his willingness to push back on some of these issues. Oftentimes people feel like it's a lost cause when you're pushing back against government that they're just gonna do whatever they're gonna do. But that's not true. And ultimately the public utility commission sided with Bit mine is cited with Satoshi Action Fund and forced Idaho power to give just compensation for Bitcoin miners who participate in demand response. And that was a huge victory for Bitcoin and for Bitcoin miners and for our whole industry to show that you can win in the political space and that you can do it at the state level.

Dennis Porter:               Not only is this something that we're planning on getting involved at the state level, this is not new. This is something that other industries have done very successfully in the past solar industry, very active at the state level, very active in public utility commissions the marijuana industry, very active at state level, very active in trying to convince policy makers that this is a positive, that you can bring tax revenue, you can bring jobs. 2012, there were two states that passed pro-marijuana legislation despite the fact that it was a federal crime to possess or distribute marijuana. And a decade later we have almost 75% got a call pro-marijuana legislation on their books now. And this is really the path that I want Bitcoin to follow. We don't have to be the tech industry, we don't have to be the energy industry who made the mistake of not getting involved early enough or often enough.

Dennis Porter:               I would like us to be a lot more like the solar industry and a lot more like the marijuana industry who decided to go to the state level and advocate because despite the fact that the federal government has a money printer and a lot of power the states in the United States have a significant amount of power there. They are sovereign they have consider considerable control over their energy policy. So I would highly encourage people to look at this as a way to advocate for Bitcoin, get involved with your state policy makers. Those are the people that actually still care. Going to the other side of the coin flipping on DC here, it's like the incentives are more corrupt. They don't have to listen to you because they have the unlimited money printer. They're more focused on TV time, they're more focused on headlines and trying to get in front of people and grow their popularity and grow their fame.

Dennis Porter:               That's how you win in dc That's like how you continue growing your status. Whereas the states are more focused on bringing something valuable to the state itself. Those folks in dc, not all of them There's some good people and there's even some of the people that are concerned about being on camera. There's still some good people out there, but the incentives are just more corrupt. So it's a lot more difficult to move them in the right direction. So that's kind of the two main points there. But I don't know how much more time we have, but I wanted to just tell people one more time that I put that one pager on the benefits of Bitcoin mining up in the telegram above. There's a tweet at the top of this channel if you guys wanna go take a look at it. I would love that if you guys could keep that to yourself, kind of distribute it to policy makers and regulators, but try to keep it off Twitter if at all possible. I'm sure someone will post it just to be rude. But yeah, just try to keep it on low as much as possible.

Logan Chipkin:               That sounds great. Yeah if everyone could please not tweet out the document that Dennis so graciously shared with us. That would be good. Yeah, that was good to know about the difference, which I feel much more optimistic about state level politics in the United States. So thanks for that. We'll open it to the audience now. Pig Butcher, you have a question?

Speaker 6:               I have one. Cause the government doesn't really like there are no big funds of Bitcoin. Cause I know Bitcoin mining is not really eco-friendly, but I don't really care cause I love cryptocurrency. Cause some of the governments, they're really against Bitcoin. So I don't think that they would allow Bitcoin mining to happen. Cause common they can't control cryptocurrency. They would want something they could control. That's all I can, I could just maybe give me a threat to my question about the mining and would they agree to it.

Dennis Porter:               I mean, for one, Bitcoin mining is a powerful tool to have a positive impact on the environment. And two, this is what people said back in the day too. They'll, they'll never let Bitcoin exist. And already today we were seeing governments kind of mold their narrative around Bitcoin. It's almost like the same conversation that we had around the printing press. Like, oh, governments will never let the church printing press exist. Right? And at the end of the day, there's just something you can do to stop it and the more you fight it the more powerful it becomes. Especially with Bitcoin, it's extremely antifragile. So it's a fair point, but I really just fully disagree. I don't think what we need to do is try to have these relationships with policy makers to avoid them making bad decisions. Cuz they will try and there are nations that have successfully banned Bitcoin mining or at least pass a law.

Dennis Porter:               But the best thing that we can do is try to blunt that by building these relationships. One point I really wanted to make about this whole thing was that when you're engaged with especially state policy makers, they don't have a lot of folks that are focused on them. Whereas the DC level, they're camera time, they're very famous, they're all over the place, they can see tweet something big out and people are all paying attention. These state policy makers, it's very different in most states especially outside of New York and California and maybe Texas. Those are bigger markets. But they love when they're interacted with, they love the engagement, they love the help. A lot of these guys are volunteers. So when you're in there and you're building a relationship with them, you're having a positive impact on the direction that they're gonna go. And it's kind of going back to this idea of the people, most the people that you spend the most time around, or the top five of them are who you're most be one of the people that is most around one of these state policy makers and having a positive relationship with them.

Dennis Porter:               And you'll be surprised by how much they move in the right direction. That's not a guarantee. Politicians are human beings. They're gonna sometimes do what you want and sometimes not like you can't control them. But ultimately, if you have a positive relationship with elected officials, that's where you can have an impact. Some industries make a really big, some voting constituencies, they make the very big mistake of turning into the loudest, like meanest, angriest people every cycle. And they might actually end up getting politicians to perform lip service for them during voting season because they want to appease that loud, angry mob of people in that voting constituency. But if you aren't building good relationships and you're just kind of depending on the social influence of being a mob when it comes to the going gets tough, do you think they're gonna wanna help you? No, they're just giving you lip service because you're loud and you're causing problems for them. That's not how you win in a long term. You need to build these strong long-term relationships with policymakers where they see you as an ally and not as someone that's trying to put 'em in an armbar, so to speak.

Speaker 6:               Oh, that answers my questions perfectly. Thank you so much, Dennis.

Logan Chipkin:               Thanks. Pick Butcher for your question. So we have Tatum turn up next and after that we'll go to Brian. Also. Brian, nice to see you at Sasin and we all really enjoyed reading your book collectively as part of our book club. So thanks. So Tatum what's on your mind?

Speaker 7:               Hello. Thank you for having me, Dennis. It's always a pleasure to hear you go crazy in these spaces. Talking about mining it always the fire under my rear end. But I really like how you talked about the state level kind of conversations that we can and should have. One thing that I'm looking at is I'm trying to leverage my connections that I have within my even smaller local city government. The mayor and several council councilmen have been family friends of my entire family for years. And I'm on texting bases with them. And whenever at Fort Worth I think it was Fort Worth, I'm pretty sure announced that they were, mining wasn't much. They didn't have. But I think what two asics going, but it's also just a kind of a statement and I immediately was like, okay, I gotta get Toby on this, who's a mayor of Harrisburg. What kind of incentives are more specific to a local city government that would be easier to how much, where's the Venn diagram between benefits of mining on a state level and benefits of mining on a local level? Does that make any sense at all?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, definitely makes sense. Get that question a lot. The big thing really for Bitcoin mining in particular that I highlighted earlier really is this ability for energy policy to be manipulated at the state level the public utility commission. But there are certain instances where you can have conversations with mayors, particularly on the landfill side of things like most landfills, wastewater treatment facilities are kind of managed by the municipalities, so city officials. So if you can get into conversations with them and see kind of test their temperature on what their interest would be to monetize what is really just trash gas, that's a really great angle, great way to have a conversation. And it's very, very pro environment and it's just something that I think really is gonna pick up quite dramatically over the next few years. There's a focus on landfill gas by a couple of organizations in a space and I'm really excited about that.

Dennis Porter:               So if you do talk to a mayor, that would be the easiest one. You could also talk to them about mining Bitcoin and you could point to Dallas for the Fort Worth area in Texas. The mayor there is they had some machines donated to them and their mining Bitcoin, I know there, I believe it's the Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Mining Foundation. I forget, it was a spinoff from the tbc I'm forgetting the gentleman, I think it was Ryan from over there that started that. It was a spinoff from them. So they're doing donated machines and giving 'em to cities to mind Bitcoin, which I think is a really unique way to also have start the conversation.

Speaker 7:               Awesome. Yeah, I, I've been flirting with the idea for a good while since I've been diving deeper into mining and I'm now opening up these conversations, it's getting me closer to pulling the trigger. And I have gotten word from the mayor. He's like, I do want to talk. I just don't know what to talk about. And I was like, Same here, actually. So this is very beneficial. But yeah, I definitely think that I wanna be pretty active in that telegram and try to pick the community's brain about doing some of that. But yeah, I really appreciate your information right there.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks, Tatum. Can't wait to do the episode. Looking forward to that, you guys. He started a new show. Go check it. When is the first episode drop? Is it out yet? I can't wait to see that one with prompt. Dude, this to be so funny.

Speaker 7:               <laugh> episode one drops Monday the 17th at 10:00 AM Central on youtube.com/tatum. Up between two Asics, it's like between two ferns, but with Bitcoin. But yeah, <laugh>, I got Dennis on an episode here coming up. So really looking forward to that. Thanks for that little plug.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, dude, of course. I think it's a genius new kind of type of content. We need a little bit more comedic relief in a space, especially in the bear market.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, that's very true. Look forward to that Tatum. Brian, good to see you and hear from you. Did you have a question for Dennis?

Speaker 8:               Yeah, just a quick one but by the way, I don't know if there's what caught my attention more was the fact that it's a Bitcoin show or between two Ferns reference <laugh>. That got me pretty excited for the show. So anyways Dennis, my question is just when you're going and sitting down with these politicians, I'm just curious as to the level of lobbying their getting in general. Obviously you're going and sitting down with them. Are they mentioning that, Oh wow, yeah, I've talked to three Bitcoin guys today already. What's the level of lobbying that's coming from the Bitcoin community? That'd be my first part of the question. And then if there is some level of lobbying that they are mentioning, Oh yeah, I'm getting lobbied pretty consistently, or I'm not getting lobbied at all, what is the breakdown if they mention between Bitcoin lobbying and crypto or Altcoin lobbying? Curious as far as what that breakdown's like?

Dennis Porter:               Well, yeah, the crypto versus Bitcoin lobbying is stark. If you're talking about it from a traditional lobbying perspective and the money that's being spent there was about 10 million spent last year on crypto broadly lobbying efforts, and there was no specific notice of any percentage of that being coming from Bitcoin only groups. I have a very distinct kind of take on how Bitcoiners should approach lobbying, and I don't really see it as a crypto versus Bitcoin universe. I think that's a kind of dangerous way to approach the political do dialogue. Crypto groups have mass amounts of funds and they're also way better connected. So I could probably write a whole article on this approach. Haven't really shared my specific strategy or approach on this because it's one that I uniquely take and have been very effective. In fact, the difference between me and most of the other and Satia Action fund and the other Bitcoin only groups, and we are, I would say Bitcoin mining focused.

Dennis Porter:               So some of our work does impact, positively impact other proof of work protocols. But we are Bitcoin focus. The work that we're doing as a Bitcoin only group comparative to the others is much more collaborative in the political space. Most Bitcoin only groups tend not to work across the aisle, or at least publicly that I know of. I'm sure some of them are doing it without talking about it publicly, but I'm not afraid to align on things that I align with. It's kinda like a Reagan quote, get half the loaf and come back for half the loaf later. I think that we should work with anyone in the political space that has an interest in working towards the same goals. And the one thing about crypto groups that you need to remember is many of these people hold Bitcoin and they value Bitcoin and they value proof of work.

Dennis Porter:               There's no concerted effort among the crypto group to ostracize Bitcoin mining out of it. There's been some pretty well known speakers in this space who have tried to come up with this as some sort of theory or that it's some sort of collusion occurring but that couldn't be further from the truth. Even the blockchain association and the digital chamber, which are blockchain, crypto chambers of commerce and political organizations for the crypto space, they have spent millions of dollars protecting proof of work in New York. So I think that if you're gonna spend millions of dollars protecting proof of work, then that's a pretty good sign that you might also be interested in helping push forward bitcoin mining policy within other states as well and possibly at the federal level and these things are occurring. So trying to do us versus them doesn't really make sense for our space, especially as Bitcoin becomes the only true proof of work chain. There are others, but it's like what, like 95% at this point of Bitcoin? So anytime we work on Bitcoin mining policy well received, and whether it's with left Crypto or Bitcoin only we're able to work across the aisle with pretty much anybody.

Speaker 8:               Thanks, man. That's really cool to hear. I, I love to hear that that's about winning and getting this thing move forward. So man, I appreciate that response.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, I have time for one more question and just want to tell people again, if you're interested in learning more about the organization, we have our telegram up top also. We are making a lot of efforts, a lot of significant efforts underway. Right now we have five, six pieces of model policy. We're gonna be sharing more of that as time goes on. We definitely want to get it out there in the public and give it some more of an open source perspective. So if people can view it and critique it if they want to. We've invited quite a few people to take a look at our model policy including energy experts, regulatory mining, hardware, regulatory grid you name it. We've had someone from that industry kind of take a look at it and make sure that we're going the right direction, but we always wanna make sure we're getting as much input as possible from the community as well.

Dennis Porter:               We have our one pager that we've been working on. We also have a dinner coming up. So if you're gonna be at the Texas Blockchain Council Summit which is on the 17th and 18th of November, we have a dinner going on the 18th. We're doing just doing small private dinner, but it got some tables there. But we have all sorts of different great people that are gonna be a part of it and happy to share more details. But Darren Feinstein will be there. Matt Schultz from Clean Spark and Natalie Brunelle, Dan hell, Nick Carter, all your favorite, or some people might say least favorite people in the space, but I love to bring 'em all together and have conversations because all these people are concerned about moving Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining in the right direction.

Logan Chipkin:               That sounds like a very fun dinner. I'm jealous I'm not in Texas right now. Yeah. So does anyone have one last question for Dennis before he gets going? If not, I certainly have a question. Okay, so last question. So Dennis, you were basically saying that the strategy is in my own words, because Bitcoin is such a kind of universal problem solver, you wait to hear what the politician is concerned with and then kind of jujitsu Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining into their problem. So I'm just wondering, aside from that, is there any part of you that if you're talking that kind of discriminates between whether you're talking to a Republican or a Democrat or is that not even a thought?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, no. If that wasn't gonna be your question, I was gonna probably try to slip that in at the end just to make sure there was some coverage on it. But definitely it does have an impact. So there's kind of like that beginner level, which is just basically promoting the benefits of Bitcoin mining. And then there is the expert level, which is really kind of jujitsu in, as you mentioned, good analogy on whatever the issues that are kind of key to them. But you can also target partisan politics. So if they're a staunch Republican where they're a staunch Democrat, you can kind of hone in on broad party issues because politicians, they do have issues that they care about, but they're also part of parties. And these parties have a lot of really important issues that they focus on. So kind of broad strokes, if you're talking to Republican, you're like talking about freedom, talking about American values, you're talking about how it's pro energy, how it's helps the small government angle.

Dennis Porter:               If you're talking to a Democrat and you're talking about banking, the unbanked, talking about the climate, talking about helping minorities and disenfranchised groups those are how I would separate the two. Really just figure out what the most important issues are on the partisan side of things, and then go down the line on how Bitcoin helps. And again, if you get to the point where you're just like you, that it does help because you've heard the arguments yourself, but you're not necessarily a good communicator, but you've made that as inroads with policy makers and they kind of are like, Tell me more. And you're just like, Shit, I don't do this very often. I'm not a good educator, but I understand the points. Feel free to email us info@satoshiaction.com or.io, excuse me. You can also send 'em to our website or send 'em that one pager that we have in the telegram above, and then they'll more info there as well on how to reach out to us.

Dennis Porter:               But one last point too I've said point 'em to us but also point them to, if you're in Texas tbc, if you're in Ohio, they have the O obc, right? It's like there's all these different groups and a lot of them might say blockchain, but most of them have a pretty heavy Bitcoin focus. You'd be surprised how much of them effort is focused on Bitcoin specifically. And a lot of states have 'em about, I would say 40 states have an official entity. Probably about half of those are very highly engaged. And the reason why I say point them to these local groups is because that's good for us also. That's good for Satoshi action. All of our work happens at the state level. But oftentimes, let's say let's just gives tech Texas as an example. I'm not from Texas. I don't have family in Texas.

Dennis Porter:               I don't have any relationships there. Each state is like their own country. Imagine going to a foreign country being like, here, this is what you should do with your politics. They tend to reject outside help if it's too strong. They want people that are there locally. So if you can point your elected official towards that local group, that's good. They're gonna go, Okay, this group is from here. They're not from some outside special interest group that they'll appreciate that. But also on the other side of the coin, the flip side that the way that it helps us is it builds those state groups up and it makes them more effective. And those are the groups that we tap into the most. So if you can help build those groups up, then you can such action fund. When we go tap into those groups to help them or when they help us, it's just a stronger, better outcome for everybody.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, great. And yeah, conversations like these always make me extremely optimistic for the future of Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. When I first got into it a handful of years ago, my main concern was that the government would shut it down. But thanks to the efforts of you, Dennis, and people like you we are creating the cultural and political capital necessary that nothing like that what happened in China will ever happen in the United States. So thank you very much. We appreciate your time very much Dennis and we'll talk another time.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks guys. Hopefully reach out to me if you'll be at the Texas Blockchain Council, I'll be there. And I should be around the Pacific Bitcoin event too as well. I'll be around that area, those dates. So reach out to me if you happen to be in the area.

Logan Chipkin:               Sounds great. Thanks Dennis.

Kent Halliburton:               Thanks so much, Dennis. Truly appreciate you sharing your wisdom and keep up the good work.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, that was an absolutely incredible conversation. And yeah, we're very appreciative for all the work that you do out there for us.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks guys. I'll see you soon.

Logan Chipkin:               Take care.

Logan Chipkin:               All right. I have a few minutes to hang around if other people wanna chat or have questions following up that conversation. I don't know if Will has time. I have a few, but in the meantime, I'll just say this was our SaaS, Mining's third Twitter spaces. We host these every single Thursday at 3:30 PM Eastern. We go for about an hour, give or take next week. We likely have Daniel Fromkin of Brains And Brains has a very interesting history. They were really some of the first people involved seriously in mining pools. So we're going to get into the history of mining pools and their importance now, and especially during kind of a bear market. What does that mean for Bitcoin miners and all that stuff, both from a technological and economic angle. So definitely come for that. We actually, we have a lot of exciting guests almost through the rest of 2022 to be honest. But certainly if there are people that you think we should speak with definitely feel free to DM me. You can just DM this Twitter account, the SA Mining Twitter account and we're more than happy to entertain your ideas for guests.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, thank you for laying that out, Logan. And on top of that we're still learning with these Twitter spaces and trying to make sure that whenever we're hosting 'em, that everyone who's out there listening that you're getting the most out of it. So if you have any ideas, any topics that you want us to touch on in particular, and especially if you wanna come up and participate in the discussion, we intentionally are leaving space at the end of these Twitter spaces with the guests to allow any of you guys out there who join these at 3:30 PM Eastern on Thursdays to come and participate in the conversation. And actually since I got you up here, Brian incredible book at says mine and we've got the book club, and we're appreciative of you putting that out there. I would like to, I guess, give you the floor here and just share with the audience a little bit about what led you to write the book and what you're hoping to accomplish with it. Maybe he is no longer by the mic

Logan Chipkin:               <laugh>. Yeah. Or he doesn't realize he's muted.

Will Szamosszegi:               Well, in that case, Logan point, the question to you, our internal Bitcoin expert, what did you take away from the book, <laugh>?

Logan Chipkin:               Yes as I might have mentioned to you privately, Brian very much frames the book as he describes himself as a bleeding heart capitalist which in a way is to me a hybrid of the left wing and right wing perspectives, at least in the United States. So it really ties in to our conversation with Dennis Porter. And as you know Will about me is I have certainly have my own kind of political ideology, but I'm very interested in how we can bring Bitcoin to all people of all political backgrounds. And so basically his book really hit home for me is that, and I think I have a feeling we'll talk about this with Jason Meyer when he's on the program, is you can be basically, let's say a right wing capitalist or a left leftwing socialist, and Bitcoin satisfies both of your political ambitions. The right wing version would be that Bitcoin secures private property rights. This is something Robert Breedlove is heavy on. That's kind of a right wing thing. It's very difficult to implement big government when the money itself is almost infinitely secure in terms of property rights, who owns what as it were. And then from a left wing perspective, you're drastically limiting the wealth inequality because you're ending the so-called canon effect whereby the early people to access the new money from the Federal Reserve become disproportionately wealthier than the people who get the money last. And of course, those people tend to be poor people already.

Logan Chipkin:               And of course, the whole energy and environment angle from a left wing perspective that we don't have to delve into again. And so I really like that is something I took away from the book. And I also liked his I think if I recall correctly, he really emphasized dollar cost averaging, which obviously this is not an investment in vice show, and I'm sure there are laws saying that if I give investment advice right now, I'm going to jail. So this is not advice, but I dunno, to me, if anyone's worried about Bitcoin's volatility, which is understandable to me, just dollar cost average, don't worry about it and just carry on with your life. That's my takeaway.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, it's pretty incredible being in Bitcoin and when being exposed to Bitcoin this early, right? And it was one of those things that I had gone through when I first got in every, no matter when you get in, you think you're late once you really start learning about it. And then once you really really dive in, then you realize how early you are. I mean, it was mind blowing when I first realized that based on the Bitcoin protocol, that the last Bitcoin is gonna be mined in the year 2140. So I mean, being a part of this industry in the first 15 years you're one of the earliest adopters in the entire world. And just by nature of you being in this particular Twitter spaces, I mean, you're part of the early movement, you're part of the army here and at the very beginning, I mean, being able to go and be part of a conversation where you can come up on stage and speak with someone like Dennis and then hear how Dennis is participating and being part of the whole movement towards orange peeling politicians. I mean, it is pretty wild. And Logan, I mean, you've done such incredible work in helping do research with SA mining and figuring out how everything ties in on the energy side. And I mean, from your perspective, Logan, what do you think is the most important thing in Bitcoin that you could be working on right now if you're out there, you're not in the industry, but you're looking to get involved and participate, and you're a believer in what Bitcoin can stand for?

Logan Chipkin:               Yes, that's a great question. So okay, if I understand your question, which is a very interesting one, it's like, okay, if I'm not working in Bitcoin, what can I do to further Bitcoin? Number one, and it sounds tongue and cheek, but it's really true, is to really start buying Bitcoin and holding it on your private key, on your private wallet, incentives are very real. And if you own Bitcoin, if you start thinking about it as a store of value in the long run, you'll have a much greater just out of self interest. You'll want Bitcoin to prosper. So that's number one is like don't just talk about it. Don't just talk to talk, walk the walk. Really own Bitcoin anyway. It's good for you. And if you really think Bitcoin is the next global reserve asset, you'll wanna buy it anyway. Number two would be honestly, I would take up Dennis Porter's offers read the works that he shared, contact him if need be the Satoshi Action Fund, and see if you can get involved with local politicians.

Logan Chipkin:               I didn't quite realize until he was talking about it, how much more effective politics can be on a state level than on a national level. I've heard from different political podcasters, I listen to that on the local level. So even below the state level people are so apathetic that literally, if you're a handful of ideologues, for lack of a better word, can basically take over local politics. So look, it's something to think about. It sounds cheesy, but you really can be the change you wanna see in the world. And if you want Bitcoin to thrive, then go ahead and do that. So I would say number one, own Bitcoin. Number two work towards orange filling politicians. And I think number three would just be keep, If you feel like you're not knowledgeable enough about the topic every day, there are more ways to learn about Bitcoin.

Logan Chipkin:               So I would highly recommend that come. Look, we are an ideological minority, so come prepared when people are going to argue. And if I may kind of shamelessly plug the SaaS mining blog, we cover Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining all sorts of related topics related to energy as well. Of course, you have all sorts of podcasts. You have the SaaS Mining podcast of course, but you also have podcasts like what Bitcoin did with Peter McCormack. He's been going into the relationship between energy and Bitcoin mining recently. So I would really recommend that podcast as well. Also in terms of education, I would really recommend GE Swan's, Bitcoin Audible, where he basically reads kind of in depth articles about all different aspects of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and he provides commentary. So without overwhelming the audience, I won't give more, but those would be the three steps I would take.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah. Awesome, Logan. Well I think that's a good place to wrap it up but please, if you enjoyed this Twitter space, follow the accounts and keep tuning in every week. I'm sure that the conversations are gonna continue to be interesting. We're gonna be touching a lot of topics, and please let us know if there's something that you want us to touch on that we haven't touched on already. Thanks

Logan Chipkin:               Everyone. Absolutely. Thanks Will. Thanks everyone for joining. Talk to you next week. Bye.

Logan Chipkin:               Hey everyone. Logan here. How's everyone doing? If everyone's having a good day, maybe gimme a thumbs up or a clap or something. See that everyone's going well, there we go. Thanks, Harry. Glad to hear that. Or I guess see that in this case?

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, exactly. I love that emoji. Yeah, this is gonna be a fun conversation with Dennis Porter. I think we're gonna talk a little bit about the growing narrative around Bitcoin mining and energy and the environment but we're going to spend the majority of the time talking about Dennis's forays into orange peeling politicians. And I'm sure he'll have plenty of kind of wisdom that he's built up that he would like to share. Personally, I am dying to know if the strategy differs, whether he's talking to a Democrat or a Republican. My guess would be it does but I could also see the counter-argument of just kind of here's why Bitcoin is the next revolutionary technology. Take it or leave it. But I know personally, I don't know if any of you experienced this, but it's useful to take into account who you're talking to. So if you're talking to, let's say a left progressive and they have certain values, then you really wanna explain why Bitcoin is pursuant to those values. And then same thing with conservatives. So conservatives, they wanna curb the power of government. Well, Bitcoin does that. Left wingers wanna reduce inequality. Well, Bitcoin does that too, for example. But we'll see what Dennis has to say. He certainly has more experience orange peeling politicians than I do.

Logan Chipkin:               Hey, Kent, I see Dennis is here. Dennis, I'm about to invite you to speak, Kent. I see you also requested. One moment, add a speaker. One sec.

Speaker 2:               All

Logan Chipkin:               Right. All right. Kent, are you with

Kent Halliburton:               Us? I am Logan. Thank you.

Logan Chipkin:               Excellent. Thank you for joining. I see Dennis is also here Dennis Porter. Just to confirm, can you please say a couple words just so we can hear you, and then we'll get the ball rolling.

Dennis Porter:               Yep, I'm here, guys. Looking forward to it.

Logan Chipkin:               Excellent, Excellent lot. And I see we have Will here, Will Sam Zagi is the CEO and founder of SaaS Mining. So we'll go ahead and bring him up and then we'll go ahead and get started.

Kent Halliburton:               And before we do, I think Logan, it would be great if you could introduce us since you are the official host of our Twitter spaces these days. So Logan has been head of content, he's got a background as an author and just writes the most amazing articles for us. Definitely recommend tracking our blog if you don't ready. But Logan, you wanna say a few words and introduce yourself to the audience since we haven't done that officially. And I'm embarrassed that we haven't since you've done such an excellent job with this so far.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate the kind words Kent. Yeah, my name is Logan Chikin. I'm the content manager, if you like, for SaaS mining. Like Kent said I have a long history and background in writing all sorts of stuff, and I've been into kind of economics and Bitcoin and politics for a long while. So I've really been enjoying just doing all sorts of deep dives for the size mining team from kind of a Bitcoin mining angle, from an energy angle, from a political repercussions angle. So that's basically me in a nutshell. And so Kent, why don't we go ahead and let's introduce Dennis first and then Kent and will introduce you quickly. So Dennis you're the CEO and co-founder of the Satoshi Action Fund, which we're definitely going to get into. And you're kind of on this mission to orangeville as many politicians as possible. So I wonder if you could just briefly introduce yourself to the audience here.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, thank you guys for having me on. Really looking forward to this conversation. As you stated, you know, ceo, co-founder Satoshi Action Fund background, been in Bitcoin since 2017, have a background in politics and grassroots organization including campaign management as well. So spent a lot of time around elected officials and with organizations that are focused on changing policy and trying to shift the policy narratives. Kind of grew up also really with my father being a very big political guy, just listening to talk radio all the time, and really kind of immersing myself in the different ways that people approach the political space. Fortunate now to have my own political organization that focuses on educating policy makers and regulators on the benefits of Bitcoin and bitcoin mining. We also turn around and craft public policy to be able to help guide the conversation and help them attract Bitcoin mining to their state in a safe and sustainable way. But really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you guys for having me up here. And I'm excited to talk about some of the tips and tricks that I've learned on how to have conversations with policy makers and regulators that are productive and lead towards good outcomes.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah look, I was telling the crowd, I think there's gonna be a lot of wisdom to be gained in this conversation. So before we get into all that, Kent, do you wanna say a couple words about who you are?

Kent Halliburton:               Yeah, absolutely. So I come from a background in renewable energy. That was the first half of my career working in the solar energy industry and at some pretty interesting levels. So I was overseeing both sales and software operations for an organization building rooftop solar systems across nine different states. We were publicly traded growing via mergers and acquisitions, and we're competing a lot with Solar City actually at that point in time. And I made the transition to Bitcoin mining primarily because I saw that solar energy and bitcoin mining was gonna collide. And so it's quite interesting how similar the two industries are actually both being disruptive, decentralized, and distributed technologies. But I have been enjoying helping to build the internal team and operations for SaaS mining here with Will

Will Szamosszegi:               And Ken, I am very grateful to be working side by side with both you and Logan and Dennis Men. I am, I've been so excited for this conversation. I know that we've been going back and forth for a while on Twitter. I love following your work and yeah, I mean, I'm excited to sit here and listen in on this conversation and play a small role in it. So I mean with that, I'll pass it right back off to you, Logan.

Logan Chipkin:               Thanks, Will. Yeah, so you've heard a couple dentists, you kind of alluded to it, and Kent, you certainly did in your background about clean energy, a renewable future and how Bitcoin and bitcoin mining connect with those. And I think that'll eventually connect with dentists, some of your thoughts on how to orange peel certain politicians. So before we get into how to orange peel politicians proper, I saw really, I recommend everyone watch your round table with Daniel Batten and Troy Cross and others. And I'm wondering, has your strategy on orange peeling politicians at all changed since you've kind of started looking into this emerging narrative that Bitcoin mining is really good for humanities relationship with energy and is good for our impact on the climate?

Dennis Porter:               Oh yeah. I mean, it's my approach to the way I engage with policy makers on this issue has changed dramatically over the last year, year and a half. I spent most of my time in the early days really trying to explain the benefits of Bitcoin, the asset and the potential that it has for people in disenfranchised communities. Also, for those that have kind of been left outside of the banking sector and as a asset that can't be debased, I have had success with that. I think there is quite a few people that are interested in that conversation and I do still use that as a tool in my tool bag, but I've added quite a few different tools to the tool bag and we can get into those various tools and almost like a, Hey, I tried to break it down in an easy medium and difficult approach for this conversation.

Dennis Porter:               People said they were really interested in the idea of how to do this stuff. And so I've kind of broken it down into different approaches and also kind of a different approach between state and federal as well. There's a slight difference there. But yeah, the energy side of things, I've really grown my understanding quite dramatically on energy and how Bitcoin mining will play a role in the energy transition that we are all undergoing currently. And that's a really important thing to understand for policy makers because if you're trying to promote Bitcoin, you're inherently going to be promoting proof of work. And proof of work uses quite a bit of energy. And if you don't have an answer for the energy consumption part of the conversation, if you don't have a way to talk to policy makers that is productive, when you're talking about energy and you're talking about renewables and you're talking about fossil fuels, you're talking about how Bitcoin mining can participate in the grid.

Dennis Porter:               It, it's really hampering your chances of building a successful effort to get those policy makers to move the right direction. Now, there are multiple tactics that you can use in order to help get a policy maker maker to kind of see the benefits of Bitcoin or Bitcoin mining, but that's gonna be one of the biggest ones because even if you don't care about the environment, even if you are someone who doesn't believe that climate is an issue, or the changing climate is a problem, or maybe you recognize it's an issue and you don't think there's much we can do about it, having an answer for that conversation and knowing how Bitcoin can participate in aligning with those people's values that do care about it is really critical for convincing policy makers that do care about this issue. But all, even for those policy makers that don't, they are thinking in the back of their head, But is this thing gonna get all the environmentalists attacking me?

Dennis Porter:               Am I gonna be fighting every day of my life to survive trying to pass this piece of policy with environmentalists knocking down my door? It's not something most policy want makers want, whether I go to red states or blue states, it doesn't matter. They all are thinking about how Bitcoin mining can impact energy and how Bitcoin mining can impact renewables. And when I talk to them about those issues, they are most oftentimes don't understand that Bitcoin mining can impact it in a positive way. They always have some sort of negative thought in their mind with regards to Bitcoin mining and those topics. And so having that one to talk about, even if you can just talk about it in a very mild manner, you don't know a lot, you should always try to have at least a little bit of knowledge about it so that you can kind of overcome those roadblocks because the environment and talking about energy is a huge topic right now for a lot of policy makers. And if you don't have any answer for it, most likely the door will probably be closed on future conversations.

Logan Chipkin:               So yeah, I totally hear your point about in a democracy, the politicians are always going to be thinking, which special interest group is going to hop on my back if I follow, if I endorse a certain technology, whatever it is. So in that light, I already mentioned kind of let's say Bitcoin mining is good for the environment type people like Troy Cross and Daniel Baton. So do you see in this battle for Bitcoin, for lack of a better phrase, they are pushing in the culture for environmentalists to get on board and then you are pushing for the politicians to get on board. Is that how you see the different kind of pieces playing their roles?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, when I met Troy, I mean, he was the one who I think told me he had some sort of interesting takes on the environment, and I hadn't ever met him before, even though we live in the same city, it was during the pandemic we ended up meeting over Zoom Portland, Oregon, where we're both from was pretty locked down. So even if we wanted to meet, there would be nowhere to meet at. So we met over Zoom and he told me about some of his ideas and his views on an issue which Bitcoiners had historically had difficulty overcoming. Most of the time it's like the answer is, screw you, we can use the energy, it doesn't matter. Or at the time back then was kind of this attitude of Christmas lights, well use a lot of energy too. And comparing Bitcoin mining to the energy consumed by the banking sector, which are all valid arguments.

Dennis Porter:               I'm not gonna knock those arguments, but they're just not very effective for convincing environmentalists to get on board with Bitcoin mining. I would say that the biggest and best arguments are getting them on board with Bitcoin mining is really getting into how Bitcoin can enhance renewables. That's a key area that Satoshi Action Fund focuses on. But going back to Troy and going back to just the difference between how we approach things. Yeah, I think that Troy and the others do we have Jason in the audience we've got Margo there's a bunch other Daniel Batton that are just aggressively trying to, including Kent and SAS and you guys up here, right, moving the right direction on convincing environmentalists that Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining can be good for the planet. I would say that's one of the most important conversations that we're having today. A lot of, and a lot of Bitcoiners gonna kind of get pissed at you guys and they try to tell you to stop promoting Bitcoin in this way and that we shouldn't be concerned about whether Bitcoin mining impacts the environment in a positive or negative direction.

Dennis Porter:               But ultimately I think it's the most important conversation we can be having. As you mentioned earlier, well entrenched people that are ideologically entrenched, morally entrenched, economically entrenched tend to be very politically active. And I would say that environmentalists are one of the most politically active groups that you could engage with in the political space today. And I think that it's imperative that if the truth aligns and the physics align, that we should be telling environmentalists that Bitcoin mining does align with their values. So the people up on the stage and including Troy Cross, Daniel Batton and a number of other environmentalists, I couldn't be more excited about the wave of conversations that are occurring across the Bitcoin space. When I met Troy, he was, I didn't know an environmentalist that was kind of thinking about how Bitcoin mining could be seen as something as positive for their movement.

Dennis Porter:               And I think that once I recognized how far he had come on the conversation, it really, really made me extremely bullish because I noticed and realized that if it's possible with Troy, someone who actually, he'll tell you his story, he questioned whether he should continue to participate in Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining because of the potential energy problems that it could cause, and was able to find a way through that and was able to find a way to figure out how Bitcoin mining could align and Bitcoin could align with his values. But once I noticed that and I saw the change that had occurred for him it was not very long after that I started to realize that we don't need to fight the environmentalists. We don't need to convince people that the energy consumption as a comparison to the banking sector is kind of equal or better.

Dennis Porter:               We should start trying to convince people that Bitcoin mining is actually very pro environment, that it is something that if we are communicating responsibly and if we're communicating with people in a way that aligns with their values, they can start to see that this is a tool for them to advance the things that they wanna see happen in the world. And the best part is it's done in a way where there's no government incentives, there is, there's no big stick, there's no tax breaks, it's just pure free market incentives that are pushing environmentalists towards Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. And also it doesn't impact the values or changed the protocol in any way because we all have seen some of the attempts in the past, blood coins or green coins or whatever and breaking the fungibility of Bitcoin that way or trying to, is this a nonstarter for myself and many other Bitcoiners as well as those on the environmental side that understand really understand Bitcoin and also understand the need to protect the environment.

Dennis Porter:               So I'll pause there, but really Troy and those that are moving the needle on this issue, to me it's some of the most important work that can be done in the space because we need those people on our side. Bitcoin is for everybody. So we need the environmentalists because the next big fight is much more dangerous and perilous than fighting with environmentalists even though they tend to be one of the most powerful political groups. The next big fight is fighting with the people that wanna control the financial rails of the world. And they haven't even shown a single card yet. They're just willing to sit back and let us fight the Bitcoiners, fight the environmentalists. They think that's an easy win because the environmentalists tend to never lose. And that another reason why we want them on our side, if we can do so, right, We're not lying, we're not making things up, we're not spinning false narratives.

Dennis Porter:               This is truth like Bitcoin mining helps clean up the environment, it helps mitigate methane. Bitcoin mining helps perform demand and frequency response for the grid, which is good for renewables. And renewables actually are struggling right now. Renewables need more demand response customers. The IEA says we need 500 gigawatts of demand response for renewables to continue their growth. And you should like that. People that don't like renewables, you should like that too because they're not gonna stop building renewables. And if we don't start to build, renew renewables alongside what is Bitcoin mining, then we will have a problem because renewables do cause problems for the grid and those problems can be solved through Bitcoin mining. So I'm really excited about the potential to marry the Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining world with the environmental world. And I, I'm pretty bullish on it happening over the next five years could happen sooner, especially if the Bitcoin network turns CO2 or carbon negative equivalent. That would be huge for us.

Kent Halliburton:               It absolutely would be. Dennis and I just wanna add onto a bunch of a few different points that you mentioned there, because the environmental community, it's actually ironic. I consider myself an environmentalist and it's why I got into the solar industry to begin with, but I've never been able to resolve myself with of top down directives versus market driven approaches. I just never was a fan of the top down policies, especially dealing with so many subsidies in the solar industry. As much as I think Bitcoiners may not love subsidies, it's a pain for the solar industry as well to survive on them because every time they change, it means your business model actually has to change. And that's really hard to do. In fact, people in the solar industry laughingly call the solar industry the solar coaster because the volatility somewhat mimics actually the price action of Bitcoin.

Kent Halliburton:               I mean, it's an extremely difficult thin margin business to be in, but the people that are there are deeply passionate about it because they care about the environment in almost the exact same way that Bitcoiners care about Bitcoin itself. And I came into Bitcoin personally my journey was because I saw that Bitcoin was gonna be good for the environment, but I came at it from the realization that our money was broken and by having sound or money, we were gonna defer savings and that was going to reduce consumption. And it was really our consumption that was the problem. And then I realized, hey, by the way, the solar cost curves are gonna make solar the cheapest energy form in the not so distant future. And Bitcoin wants the cheapest energy for mining. So these two are gonna collide. So not only is it gonna reduce conspicuous consumption, but it's also going to reduce our not reduce, excuse me, but it's also gonna drive the adoption of renewables.

Kent Halliburton:               So this is a win-win across so many different facets. And I think like were saying there, Dennis, about the deep money, the deep pockets sort of waiting for the environmental is to root out the bitcoiners. I think what they're not counting on is that the Bitcoiners are gonna flip the environmentalists and then we're gonna have two very passionate groups uniting here. And it seems all but inevitable that that's going to happen because there may be some leading environmentalists out there that have been co-opted and they're pushing narratives because their incentives are aligned such that their organizations are funded by certain individuals that they're gonna push antibi Bitcoin agendas, but their audiences won't. And that's why we have to continue to push back on the energy fund and educate the audiences of these places because eventually the environmental community is not dumb and they will listen to reason and over a long enough period of time, the more that we open these doors towards that community, the more we're gonna come in.

Kent Halliburton:               So I really appreciate the work that you're doing to help drive that message. And I think it's incumbent on all of us within the US institution to help build the social layer for Bitcoin itself because if it gets co-opted by the right or the left, it becomes a political football. And I think that's the most dangerous position for Bitcoin to be in. Now does that hurt the network itself? No, but it hurts adoption in the US and a lot of us are building our companies in the US with the idea that US can be a bastion for all the things that were put into constitution by our for fore bears, right? So anyway, that's a long winded way of saying I appreciate the work that you're doing, Dennis to orange pill our politicians out there and really looking to learn from you on how you're going about doing that. Cause I think that's knowledge that should spread.

Dennis Porter:               One thing you said there that was super, well, two things you said there that were really important, but the biggest one was that when you can wed or marry the two groups there, politics is one by what I would call ideological groups especially in the United States. Our system is built for really small, very entrenched ideological groups. And if you are positioning Bitcoin, which ultimately in the end of the day, the end the decade or 10, 20, 30 years might be a bigger, more powerful group than the environmental group or the environmental wing. But if you don't have to fight that group and instead you can be allies in your efforts, you should be doing everything possible to do that. I mean it's very art of war type of approach. We are not actually enemies. In fact, if anything we are massive allies in our desire to see a better world.

Dennis Porter:               We have our concern about where we're going with the way that energy markets are ran. We have both of our concerns about the way that conspicuous consumption has really led to a world where folks are not saving their money and also are damaging the planet. These are very mutually shared concerns. And we might have different reasons, which is going into, if we jump skip into kind of how we orange peel politicians like everybody has at their heart and their core different reasons why they're doing something like most Bitcoiners don't even agree on their core reason why they decided to fight for this issue. Now they might have adopted a lot of other things along the way, but this is really common on an issue. You'll find the thing that got you fired up and you'll start to study that issue and start to research it and you'll find other things where you're like, Oh wow, that's really impactful.

Dennis Porter:               When I first found Bitcoin, the big thing that really started to draw me in was when I started listening to Andrea Antonopoulos and I have always had an issue with money in the political space in that way that it corrupts the political space. And when he started talking about how corrupt the money was, it was just like, oh, this is the real reason. I thought it was that we needed to overturn Citizens United and get big companies outta politics and get the money outta politics so the representatives would equally represent their constituencies and not these large special interests and corporations. Well that's true to some extent, but the worst part of it all really is the fact that they have an unlimited money printer and then they don't need to actually fix any of the problems. They can just turn the unlimited money printer on whenever they want.

Dennis Porter:               And so when I started to learn about these things, that's what got me very excited about Bitcoin. But since then I've found other reasons to become very supportive of Bitcoin. And if we jump into how to orange pill politicians, one of the ways that you can do that is finding out what their main reason for getting into politics was in the first place. Because Bitcoin is so good at touching a broad range of issu issues, typically, not always. I've definitely run into times when this strategy doesn't work, but you can approach pretty much anyone and ask them a question and this is key. Oftentimes we as Bitcoiners make the mistake of people saying, Oh, why should I like Bitcoin? And then the Bitcoin or turns around and tells them all the reasons why they like Bitcoin and why they love Bitcoin and why it's important.

Dennis Porter:               The opposite approach or the better approach in my opinion, is to turn around and ask them questions and figure out what's important to them. Because if you don't know what's important to them as an individual, you're not gonna be able to target the root of why Bitcoin will matter to them. And again, this won't work for everyone. I had a politician, I will, former a politician, he's got like 600,000 followers on Twitter right now. So he's definitely popular, but he's not an office currently anymore. But I sat down with him and he was telling me, I asked him, What, what's important to you? Why'd get into politics? And he was like, Well, it's cuz the process is messed up. You got into this whole very just analytical thing about how we need to get rid of, we need to totally change the process, get rid of the cameras and out of outta politics, which probably would come as a long tail result of Bitcoin, but it was hard to make the comparison.

Dennis Porter:               So again, this strategy will not always work, but it tends to work very well if you can figure out if someone has issues with the way that people were excluded from the banking sector, maybe someone jumped into the political space because they were concerned about the environment, maybe they jumped into the political space because they were concerned about disenfranchised communities. You can parallel Bitcoin to any of those things. That's very easy to do if you know how to do it. And I would say that that's probably the expert level of how to convince people to be Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining on the political space because love them or hate them. These politicians that we typically tend to disdain, many of them, most of them got into politics because they wanted to do something good for their community. Oftentimes the reason why they become something that is unrecognizable from where they were before is be somewhat because of the fiat system that we live in because of the corrupt incentives that we have.

Dennis Porter:               But if you're able to tap into some of those original reasons why they got engaged it, it's very effective, extremely effective. In fact for orange peeling politicians or really anybody for that matter but politicians, these are passionate people, you have to remember this they're not actors. People always try to make 'em out. These people are actors and they're fake. They tend to just be very passionate about what they believe in and the incentives kind of corrupt where they actually align their viewpoints, but get 'em 'em all the way back to that original reason. Why are you so passionate? What's the thing? What's the hill that you'll die on? And that tends to be a really great good place to start. There's a couple other easier tactics, which we can get into in a second, but I'll stop there and see if maybe Kent or SA or anyone else has some input on that.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, Dennis <laugh>, as I was listening to you there, it sounds like you really cracked the code in a big way. And I mean I hadn't even thought about it putting it that way in the sense that everyone in some way can relate to this technology, can relate to Bitcoin, can relate to the issues that Bitcoin solves. And so the magic bullet in many ways is just figuring out, rather than trying to go and shove your beliefs or views down someone's throat, really finding out what they care about and figuring out, hey, at the end of the day we're all on the same side. I think that that's such a beautiful concept. And what's incredible about Bitcoin is it unites people in ways that they don't even realize it. You start learning about all these other different types of, for example, you'll go down the rabbit hole of sound money of monetary how the money actually works, how values transferred in society and then before it, you're an advocate for this system that has brought you down so many other areas of belief and you realize that at the end of the day it just humanizes you in many ways.

Will Szamosszegi:               And so I think that when you're talking about politicians and how the entire system today works, I'm curious as to what some of these other things that you're noticing are and what you believe that the current climate actually looks like. Because I feel like it's very difficult to really understand what's going on and what the landscape looks like unless you're actually in those conversations. And I think that you've done incredible job really bringing a lot of these conversations to the forefront and speaking with different politicians and finding out, okay, how do we go and bring this very, very important group of people onto the side of humanity and onto the side of truth and on the side of Bitcoin?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, so I would say that there's a reason why Satoshi Action Fund is so highly focused on Bitcoin mining. I feel like it is. I don't is I know it is one of the quickest and easiest routes to a level of Bitcoin adoption in the United States that we probably won't achieve through other means. Oftentimes folks try to encourage those that are around them to own and hold Bitcoin and that the reason for doing so is because the dollar is essentially a scam or the fiat is gonna collapse. I mean, that's a very fear based approach. And also people tend to just not react to that because aside from it being fear based, you're really trying to convince people that they've just been lied to their whole lives. Most people will not accept that reality. I've been a Christian, I've been a religious person trying to convince people to be religious.

Dennis Porter:               I've not been a religious person trying to convince people to not be religious. You have to view it in the same light if you're trying to convince someone that their belief set or the viewpoints that they have that are built on top of a framework. In my case when I'm explaining it was a religious example but the other example is the money. If all the money is a lie, you're really shattering their entire worldview. And some people can handle that conversation, but most people can't. And so I've avoided really trying to convince people in western societies and even in, to be honest, even in other countries like third world countries, my parents have lived in El Salvador for over a decade and the people there still don't have an idea any clue why they should hold Bitcoin. It's it, it's very a abstract for people don't hard for them to wrap their brains around.

Dennis Porter:               So going back to the point, I just tend to avoid that conversation very much in the political space. I try to look for why they are very into politics, why they ran originally was one way that I started doing it. But now I'm highly focused on Bitcoin mining because bitcoin mining is a very easy pitch at Satoshi Action fund. And by the way, I don't know if you guys are interested, but up top, I put a link to our telegram that we just launched. We'll be launching a newsletter to as well soon. But up top there's a link to our telegram that we just opened up for Satoshi Action Fund. If you're interested in kind of staying up to date with what we're doing on the state level, if you're interested in engaging with some of the folks, which I'm, I'm gonna get all of our advisory members in there too here soon.

Dennis Porter:               So we've got a bunch of 'em 18 advisory members from all of our different spectrums of the space, but you can join that telegram group. But going back to the point was that Bitcoin mining is a very easy pitch to state policy makers and regulators. I walk in and I say, Bitcoin mining has the potential to bring high paying jobs, local investment, it can stabilize the grid, clean up the environment and enhance renewables and their ears perk up. They're like, Wait a minute, what? I didn't know Bitcoin mining can do that. I'm like, Yes, it can. How? And I show them and then I turn right around and I'm like, Okay, now that you're a super big Bitcoin fan like me Bitcoin mining fan here is some of the policies that you can introduce in order to bring your Stu state the right direction. I would say that this is relatively the easiest approach to Trojan horsing Bitcoin into western societies because they all want high paying jobs, they all want local investment, they all want grid stability, they all wanna clean up the environment and they all want to enhance renewables.

Dennis Porter:               So you're not finding anything there that anyone would disagree with. On the policy front it's very effective and if you're the type of person who is not a great educator or communicator we have a one pager that we've produced. If you're interested in that, I'll put it in the telegram here in a second. It basically covers all the benefits of Bitcoin mining really shows people step by step all the ar, various ways that Bitcoin mining can help solve these issues or some of the more targeted issues that it can help solve and why it's good for the grid. But we also have summaries and on some of our model policy that we're building as well for these guys. But if you're not a big educator, give 'em the one pager and then send 'em our way and we'll take care of the rest, right? Cuz that's really why Satoshi Action Fund exists. We're here to help advance bitcoin mining and we'll willing to have conversations with anybody from any state that is interested in moving the right direction. Obviously we also do provincial stuff in Canada as well, but we're an American, so we're pretty US focus for now.

Dennis Porter:               I'll put that one pager up there in the telegram right now while if someone else wants to jump in and chime in for a second.

Kent Halliburton:               Yeah, Dennis, I think there's an old adage when I was uhtraining sales people that you gotta meet people where they're at, not where you want them to be. And I think that's exactly what you're describing here when you talk about how you're Trojan horsing the politicians because you are looking at what their incentives are and you're saying, Hey, you're trying to win votes and to win votes, you need to provide jobs and a lot of voters care about the environment and the grid and having stable power. So let's talk about mining and how it can do all that for you locally. And so I think that's just such a brilliant winning strategy that I'm not surprised to see how many meetings you're getting across the country as I'm tracking your posts on Twitter and it's just incredible to see the number of politicians you're meeting with and the responses that you're receiving from these politicians.

Kent Halliburton:               So again, I think you're really doing Satoshi's work out there right now driving the political conversation. And I'm glad that we've got you on stage here spreading this. So hopefully more of us will take up that mantle and speak to our local politicians because the sooner that we help them to see the light the sooner it is that we are gonna see it accepted Bitcoin accepted across the board. And that is a much more powerful way to do it through positive incentive is then than going the route of fear and the more libertarian values, whether you hold those or not, we should win the war doing what works and not what we like and think and believe as much. And that's not to say that I don't have strong libertarian leanings, it's just, hey, we're in a dog fight out there and we need people to wake up to the reality, but let's do it using carrots not sticks.

Dennis Porter:               And as someone who is really the ultimate pragmatist and very much I would consider myself to be in the middle, like I said, I've been religious, I've been a Democrat, I've been a Republican, I've been voting both ways, been an independent. So I've seen all perspectives in all camps and I really now just at where I am in my life, even previous to Bitcoin, was very much consider myself to be a centrist. I would say Bitcoin has made me the ultimate centrist in us in some ways. And there's a huge thing that's occurring, which is that Bitcoin kind of forces us to come together and have a conversation because we all agree on the money and we have to come together and base our conversations around that starting point. Right now the money is a weapon. So in DC they use the money against each other literally.

Dennis Porter:               And it's part of the reason why winning in DC and why winning federal offices, it seems like a do or die type of situation and why we're so divisive on the federal side. The states are, yeah, certainly there's some division in the states. I think the federal side trickles in because of the money printer. They, the money printer pushes a lot of money towards the state, towards or away from the states. But really there's a reason why when your side loses in DC you feel like it's the end of the world because the power that is handed to them through the money printer and various other positions that are included along with winning the federal side is so powerful that it is quite a tragic loss. And if we are able to break down that money printer or at least reduce its significance, then we'll start to see a world where there's a lot more collaboration.

Dennis Porter:               And I think we'll start to see a world where people become kind of less concerned over who's in office. I mean decades ago it mattered, but today it's like if you lose, I mean it is such a big loss because we've really turned the money printer all the way up. It's at max capacity and it's headed towards a world where folks are willing to use the money printer so much that they're willing to break the money printer. And that's when really bad things start to happen. So hopefully we can avoid that situation. Hopefully we can reduce the dependence on the money printer for policies for politicians achieving their means because it is a very dangerous and ultimately a civilization breaking way of approaching your goals. Because we've seen this happen before many, many times when the money printer gets abused aggressively, societies collapse, war happens.

Dennis Porter:               You know, don't need to look much further back than Rome. Rome debase their currency all the way down to the point where there was almost like no actual silver content in the coins they were issuing and the soldiers were unwilling to fight for money that was worthless. So large militarized border collapsed. You could see what happened with the African nations when the Europeans came south and they base the glass agro beads that those nations were using cuz they had kind of primitive glass making abilities. The Europeans had advanced glass making abilities came down, flooded the market so much show that people thought they were gaining incredible wealth and actually sold themselves into slavery because they thought they were getting so much money. Obviously that led to a massive acceleration in the transatlantic slave trade, which is probably one of the worst human tragedies in recorded history.

Dennis Porter:               Then you also have Nazi Germany, same kind of thing, right? Printing to infinity, going to war, pointing the finger, killing millions of people one of the worst atrocities as well in human history. And all of these things kind of happen around when we break the money. And so part of me is not only trying to make sure that the United States adopts Bitcoin mining, but the other side of this whole conversation is trying to make sure that the United States doesn't break its money printer. Because if it does, really, really bad things are gonna happen. And some of us bitcoiners kind of sit around and they say, Oh well we'll let it burn. I don't think you really understand what happens when it burns. I don't really think people have an appreciation where it happens to civilization in society when the money printer breaks, especially the money printer like Rome collapsed it never recovered.

Dennis Porter:               Millions of people's, millions of people's lives were shoved around and millions of people died. That situation will be accelerated dramatically in the United States, especially as not only are we the big superpower, but everybody is using our money. The dollar is the basis for everything. And I'm not saying that we're not gonna have a turbulent time, but if we get to a world where the world is actually, the money printer breaks and the dollar collapses to nothing, your children's children will have to live with those ramifications, not just your life but generations to come will deal with the rectifications of the money printer breaking. And I don't think we want that to happen. So I wanna do everything possible to make sure the United States has the right direction on Bitcoin and I think Bitcoin mining is the one way we start that conversation.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, very well said Dennis. I just wanna say we have about 20 minutes left with Dennis. I definitely want to open it up to the audience, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to raise your hand. But before we get to the audience questions, Dennis, I've one last question. You had alluded to the fact that your strategy when approaching state level politicians in the United States versus federal politicians is different. I wonder if you could just elaborate on that cuz I wouldn't have thought that kind of in my naive perspective. Obviously I don't have the experience you have, so could you please explain what that difference is and why it matters?

Dennis Porter:               Could you say the question again? I broke up for a second.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, of course. Can you hear me now? Yeah,

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, I got you.

Logan Chipkin:               So basically why is there a strategic difference when you approach state level politicians versus federal and how does that difference manifest in your approach?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, so it's a lot easier to convince states on the Bitcoin mining issue for a couple of reasons. One is that state policy makers tend to be a lot more concerned about what they can bring home to their state. They tend to be a lot more concerned about the positive impact that they can have on their communities whether that be through jobs, local investment, some of the other things that I highlighted that Bitcoin mining can deliver. And so it's a very simple kind of salient like pro job, pro economy, pro environment conversation, pro-energy conversation. State policy makers are very attuned to those types of conversations. And so I typically avoid any sort of like, Oh, why did you get into politics? What it makes you passionate? I typically just jump right into talking about those issues. Also, specifically on the state side, many people don't know this, but on the state side is where all the energy policy occurs.

Dennis Porter:               Every state has its own public utility commission and almost every state controls their oil and gas industry. So methane from oil and gas grid, electricity from renewables, from other types of generation, all of that is being regulated at the state level. Now the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission FE does have some ways where it gets involved, but typically they don't have a lot there. There's not a lot that they can do to really get in the way of Bitcoin mining. In fact, FE and some of the mandates they've created, including their mandate for just compensation on demand and frequency response has been, is helpful for bitcoin mining because for instance, in the case of Idaho, we got involved in a rate case in Idaho. Public Utility Commissions will do these rate cases where if someone wants to change their rate design or create a new rate, they have to go to the public utility commission.

Dennis Porter:               In this case Idaho Power Rug poll or wanted to rug poll a rate from the minors in their state. This new rate that they wanted to design would force Bitcoin minors to participate in demand response without just compensation. So Satoshi Action Fund got involved in that case also bit mine. And a friend of mine from that company, Jay got involved in the case pushed back. Jay did some incredible work, very proud of his willingness to push back on some of these issues. Oftentimes people feel like it's a lost cause when you're pushing back against government that they're just gonna do whatever they're gonna do. But that's not true. And ultimately the public utility commission sided with Bit mine is cited with Satoshi Action Fund and forced Idaho power to give just compensation for Bitcoin miners who participate in demand response. And that was a huge victory for Bitcoin and for Bitcoin miners and for our whole industry to show that you can win in the political space and that you can do it at the state level.

Dennis Porter:               Not only is this something that we're planning on getting involved at the state level, this is not new. This is something that other industries have done very successfully in the past solar industry, very active at the state level, very active in public utility commissions the marijuana industry, very active at state level, very active in trying to convince policy makers that this is a positive, that you can bring tax revenue, you can bring jobs. 2012, there were two states that passed pro-marijuana legislation despite the fact that it was a federal crime to possess or distribute marijuana. And a decade later we have almost 75% got a call pro-marijuana legislation on their books now. And this is really the path that I want Bitcoin to follow. We don't have to be the tech industry, we don't have to be the energy industry who made the mistake of not getting involved early enough or often enough.

Dennis Porter:               I would like us to be a lot more like the solar industry and a lot more like the marijuana industry who decided to go to the state level and advocate because despite the fact that the federal government has a money printer and a lot of power the states in the United States have a significant amount of power there. They are sovereign they have consider considerable control over their energy policy. So I would highly encourage people to look at this as a way to advocate for Bitcoin, get involved with your state policy makers. Those are the people that actually still care. Going to the other side of the coin flipping on DC here, it's like the incentives are more corrupt. They don't have to listen to you because they have the unlimited money printer. They're more focused on TV time, they're more focused on headlines and trying to get in front of people and grow their popularity and grow their fame.

Dennis Porter:               That's how you win in dc That's like how you continue growing your status. Whereas the states are more focused on bringing something valuable to the state itself. Those folks in dc, not all of them There's some good people and there's even some of the people that are concerned about being on camera. There's still some good people out there, but the incentives are just more corrupt. So it's a lot more difficult to move them in the right direction. So that's kind of the two main points there. But I don't know how much more time we have, but I wanted to just tell people one more time that I put that one pager on the benefits of Bitcoin mining up in the telegram above. There's a tweet at the top of this channel if you guys wanna go take a look at it. I would love that if you guys could keep that to yourself, kind of distribute it to policy makers and regulators, but try to keep it off Twitter if at all possible. I'm sure someone will post it just to be rude. But yeah, just try to keep it on low as much as possible.

Logan Chipkin:               That sounds great. Yeah if everyone could please not tweet out the document that Dennis so graciously shared with us. That would be good. Yeah, that was good to know about the difference, which I feel much more optimistic about state level politics in the United States. So thanks for that. We'll open it to the audience now. Pig Butcher, you have a question?

Speaker 6:               I have one. Cause the government doesn't really like there are no big funds of Bitcoin. Cause I know Bitcoin mining is not really eco-friendly, but I don't really care cause I love cryptocurrency. Cause some of the governments, they're really against Bitcoin. So I don't think that they would allow Bitcoin mining to happen. Cause common they can't control cryptocurrency. They would want something they could control. That's all I can, I could just maybe give me a threat to my question about the mining and would they agree to it.

Dennis Porter:               I mean, for one, Bitcoin mining is a powerful tool to have a positive impact on the environment. And two, this is what people said back in the day too. They'll, they'll never let Bitcoin exist. And already today we were seeing governments kind of mold their narrative around Bitcoin. It's almost like the same conversation that we had around the printing press. Like, oh, governments will never let the church printing press exist. Right? And at the end of the day, there's just something you can do to stop it and the more you fight it the more powerful it becomes. Especially with Bitcoin, it's extremely antifragile. So it's a fair point, but I really just fully disagree. I don't think what we need to do is try to have these relationships with policy makers to avoid them making bad decisions. Cuz they will try and there are nations that have successfully banned Bitcoin mining or at least pass a law.

Dennis Porter:               But the best thing that we can do is try to blunt that by building these relationships. One point I really wanted to make about this whole thing was that when you're engaged with especially state policy makers, they don't have a lot of folks that are focused on them. Whereas the DC level, they're camera time, they're very famous, they're all over the place, they can see tweet something big out and people are all paying attention. These state policy makers, it's very different in most states especially outside of New York and California and maybe Texas. Those are bigger markets. But they love when they're interacted with, they love the engagement, they love the help. A lot of these guys are volunteers. So when you're in there and you're building a relationship with them, you're having a positive impact on the direction that they're gonna go. And it's kind of going back to this idea of the people, most the people that you spend the most time around, or the top five of them are who you're most be one of the people that is most around one of these state policy makers and having a positive relationship with them.

Dennis Porter:               And you'll be surprised by how much they move in the right direction. That's not a guarantee. Politicians are human beings. They're gonna sometimes do what you want and sometimes not like you can't control them. But ultimately, if you have a positive relationship with elected officials, that's where you can have an impact. Some industries make a really big, some voting constituencies, they make the very big mistake of turning into the loudest, like meanest, angriest people every cycle. And they might actually end up getting politicians to perform lip service for them during voting season because they want to appease that loud, angry mob of people in that voting constituency. But if you aren't building good relationships and you're just kind of depending on the social influence of being a mob when it comes to the going gets tough, do you think they're gonna wanna help you? No, they're just giving you lip service because you're loud and you're causing problems for them. That's not how you win in a long term. You need to build these strong long-term relationships with policymakers where they see you as an ally and not as someone that's trying to put 'em in an armbar, so to speak.

Speaker 6:               Oh, that answers my questions perfectly. Thank you so much, Dennis.

Logan Chipkin:               Thanks. Pick Butcher for your question. So we have Tatum turn up next and after that we'll go to Brian. Also. Brian, nice to see you at Sasin and we all really enjoyed reading your book collectively as part of our book club. So thanks. So Tatum what's on your mind?

Speaker 7:               Hello. Thank you for having me, Dennis. It's always a pleasure to hear you go crazy in these spaces. Talking about mining it always the fire under my rear end. But I really like how you talked about the state level kind of conversations that we can and should have. One thing that I'm looking at is I'm trying to leverage my connections that I have within my even smaller local city government. The mayor and several council councilmen have been family friends of my entire family for years. And I'm on texting bases with them. And whenever at Fort Worth I think it was Fort Worth, I'm pretty sure announced that they were, mining wasn't much. They didn't have. But I think what two asics going, but it's also just a kind of a statement and I immediately was like, okay, I gotta get Toby on this, who's a mayor of Harrisburg. What kind of incentives are more specific to a local city government that would be easier to how much, where's the Venn diagram between benefits of mining on a state level and benefits of mining on a local level? Does that make any sense at all?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, definitely makes sense. Get that question a lot. The big thing really for Bitcoin mining in particular that I highlighted earlier really is this ability for energy policy to be manipulated at the state level the public utility commission. But there are certain instances where you can have conversations with mayors, particularly on the landfill side of things like most landfills, wastewater treatment facilities are kind of managed by the municipalities, so city officials. So if you can get into conversations with them and see kind of test their temperature on what their interest would be to monetize what is really just trash gas, that's a really great angle, great way to have a conversation. And it's very, very pro environment and it's just something that I think really is gonna pick up quite dramatically over the next few years. There's a focus on landfill gas by a couple of organizations in a space and I'm really excited about that.

Dennis Porter:               So if you do talk to a mayor, that would be the easiest one. You could also talk to them about mining Bitcoin and you could point to Dallas for the Fort Worth area in Texas. The mayor there is they had some machines donated to them and their mining Bitcoin, I know there, I believe it's the Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Mining Foundation. I forget, it was a spinoff from the tbc I'm forgetting the gentleman, I think it was Ryan from over there that started that. It was a spinoff from them. So they're doing donated machines and giving 'em to cities to mind Bitcoin, which I think is a really unique way to also have start the conversation.

Speaker 7:               Awesome. Yeah, I, I've been flirting with the idea for a good while since I've been diving deeper into mining and I'm now opening up these conversations, it's getting me closer to pulling the trigger. And I have gotten word from the mayor. He's like, I do want to talk. I just don't know what to talk about. And I was like, Same here, actually. So this is very beneficial. But yeah, I definitely think that I wanna be pretty active in that telegram and try to pick the community's brain about doing some of that. But yeah, I really appreciate your information right there.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks, Tatum. Can't wait to do the episode. Looking forward to that, you guys. He started a new show. Go check it. When is the first episode drop? Is it out yet? I can't wait to see that one with prompt. Dude, this to be so funny.

Speaker 7:               <laugh> episode one drops Monday the 17th at 10:00 AM Central on youtube.com/tatum. Up between two Asics, it's like between two ferns, but with Bitcoin. But yeah, <laugh>, I got Dennis on an episode here coming up. So really looking forward to that. Thanks for that little plug.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, dude, of course. I think it's a genius new kind of type of content. We need a little bit more comedic relief in a space, especially in the bear market.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, that's very true. Look forward to that Tatum. Brian, good to see you and hear from you. Did you have a question for Dennis?

Speaker 8:               Yeah, just a quick one but by the way, I don't know if there's what caught my attention more was the fact that it's a Bitcoin show or between two Ferns reference <laugh>. That got me pretty excited for the show. So anyways Dennis, my question is just when you're going and sitting down with these politicians, I'm just curious as to the level of lobbying their getting in general. Obviously you're going and sitting down with them. Are they mentioning that, Oh wow, yeah, I've talked to three Bitcoin guys today already. What's the level of lobbying that's coming from the Bitcoin community? That'd be my first part of the question. And then if there is some level of lobbying that they are mentioning, Oh yeah, I'm getting lobbied pretty consistently, or I'm not getting lobbied at all, what is the breakdown if they mention between Bitcoin lobbying and crypto or Altcoin lobbying? Curious as far as what that breakdown's like?

Dennis Porter:               Well, yeah, the crypto versus Bitcoin lobbying is stark. If you're talking about it from a traditional lobbying perspective and the money that's being spent there was about 10 million spent last year on crypto broadly lobbying efforts, and there was no specific notice of any percentage of that being coming from Bitcoin only groups. I have a very distinct kind of take on how Bitcoiners should approach lobbying, and I don't really see it as a crypto versus Bitcoin universe. I think that's a kind of dangerous way to approach the political do dialogue. Crypto groups have mass amounts of funds and they're also way better connected. So I could probably write a whole article on this approach. Haven't really shared my specific strategy or approach on this because it's one that I uniquely take and have been very effective. In fact, the difference between me and most of the other and Satia Action fund and the other Bitcoin only groups, and we are, I would say Bitcoin mining focused.

Dennis Porter:               So some of our work does impact, positively impact other proof of work protocols. But we are Bitcoin focus. The work that we're doing as a Bitcoin only group comparative to the others is much more collaborative in the political space. Most Bitcoin only groups tend not to work across the aisle, or at least publicly that I know of. I'm sure some of them are doing it without talking about it publicly, but I'm not afraid to align on things that I align with. It's kinda like a Reagan quote, get half the loaf and come back for half the loaf later. I think that we should work with anyone in the political space that has an interest in working towards the same goals. And the one thing about crypto groups that you need to remember is many of these people hold Bitcoin and they value Bitcoin and they value proof of work.

Dennis Porter:               There's no concerted effort among the crypto group to ostracize Bitcoin mining out of it. There's been some pretty well known speakers in this space who have tried to come up with this as some sort of theory or that it's some sort of collusion occurring but that couldn't be further from the truth. Even the blockchain association and the digital chamber, which are blockchain, crypto chambers of commerce and political organizations for the crypto space, they have spent millions of dollars protecting proof of work in New York. So I think that if you're gonna spend millions of dollars protecting proof of work, then that's a pretty good sign that you might also be interested in helping push forward bitcoin mining policy within other states as well and possibly at the federal level and these things are occurring. So trying to do us versus them doesn't really make sense for our space, especially as Bitcoin becomes the only true proof of work chain. There are others, but it's like what, like 95% at this point of Bitcoin? So anytime we work on Bitcoin mining policy well received, and whether it's with left Crypto or Bitcoin only we're able to work across the aisle with pretty much anybody.

Speaker 8:               Thanks, man. That's really cool to hear. I, I love to hear that that's about winning and getting this thing move forward. So man, I appreciate that response.

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, I have time for one more question and just want to tell people again, if you're interested in learning more about the organization, we have our telegram up top also. We are making a lot of efforts, a lot of significant efforts underway. Right now we have five, six pieces of model policy. We're gonna be sharing more of that as time goes on. We definitely want to get it out there in the public and give it some more of an open source perspective. So if people can view it and critique it if they want to. We've invited quite a few people to take a look at our model policy including energy experts, regulatory mining, hardware, regulatory grid you name it. We've had someone from that industry kind of take a look at it and make sure that we're going the right direction, but we always wanna make sure we're getting as much input as possible from the community as well.

Dennis Porter:               We have our one pager that we've been working on. We also have a dinner coming up. So if you're gonna be at the Texas Blockchain Council Summit which is on the 17th and 18th of November, we have a dinner going on the 18th. We're doing just doing small private dinner, but it got some tables there. But we have all sorts of different great people that are gonna be a part of it and happy to share more details. But Darren Feinstein will be there. Matt Schultz from Clean Spark and Natalie Brunelle, Dan hell, Nick Carter, all your favorite, or some people might say least favorite people in the space, but I love to bring 'em all together and have conversations because all these people are concerned about moving Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining in the right direction.

Logan Chipkin:               That sounds like a very fun dinner. I'm jealous I'm not in Texas right now. Yeah. So does anyone have one last question for Dennis before he gets going? If not, I certainly have a question. Okay, so last question. So Dennis, you were basically saying that the strategy is in my own words, because Bitcoin is such a kind of universal problem solver, you wait to hear what the politician is concerned with and then kind of jujitsu Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining into their problem. So I'm just wondering, aside from that, is there any part of you that if you're talking that kind of discriminates between whether you're talking to a Republican or a Democrat or is that not even a thought?

Dennis Porter:               Yeah, no. If that wasn't gonna be your question, I was gonna probably try to slip that in at the end just to make sure there was some coverage on it. But definitely it does have an impact. So there's kind of like that beginner level, which is just basically promoting the benefits of Bitcoin mining. And then there is the expert level, which is really kind of jujitsu in, as you mentioned, good analogy on whatever the issues that are kind of key to them. But you can also target partisan politics. So if they're a staunch Republican where they're a staunch Democrat, you can kind of hone in on broad party issues because politicians, they do have issues that they care about, but they're also part of parties. And these parties have a lot of really important issues that they focus on. So kind of broad strokes, if you're talking to Republican, you're like talking about freedom, talking about American values, you're talking about how it's pro energy, how it's helps the small government angle.

Dennis Porter:               If you're talking to a Democrat and you're talking about banking, the unbanked, talking about the climate, talking about helping minorities and disenfranchised groups those are how I would separate the two. Really just figure out what the most important issues are on the partisan side of things, and then go down the line on how Bitcoin helps. And again, if you get to the point where you're just like you, that it does help because you've heard the arguments yourself, but you're not necessarily a good communicator, but you've made that as inroads with policy makers and they kind of are like, Tell me more. And you're just like, Shit, I don't do this very often. I'm not a good educator, but I understand the points. Feel free to email us info@satoshiaction.com or.io, excuse me. You can also send 'em to our website or send 'em that one pager that we have in the telegram above, and then they'll more info there as well on how to reach out to us.

Dennis Porter:               But one last point too I've said point 'em to us but also point them to, if you're in Texas tbc, if you're in Ohio, they have the O obc, right? It's like there's all these different groups and a lot of them might say blockchain, but most of them have a pretty heavy Bitcoin focus. You'd be surprised how much of them effort is focused on Bitcoin specifically. And a lot of states have 'em about, I would say 40 states have an official entity. Probably about half of those are very highly engaged. And the reason why I say point them to these local groups is because that's good for us also. That's good for Satoshi action. All of our work happens at the state level. But oftentimes, let's say let's just gives tech Texas as an example. I'm not from Texas. I don't have family in Texas.

Dennis Porter:               I don't have any relationships there. Each state is like their own country. Imagine going to a foreign country being like, here, this is what you should do with your politics. They tend to reject outside help if it's too strong. They want people that are there locally. So if you can point your elected official towards that local group, that's good. They're gonna go, Okay, this group is from here. They're not from some outside special interest group that they'll appreciate that. But also on the other side of the coin, the flip side that the way that it helps us is it builds those state groups up and it makes them more effective. And those are the groups that we tap into the most. So if you can help build those groups up, then you can such action fund. When we go tap into those groups to help them or when they help us, it's just a stronger, better outcome for everybody.

Logan Chipkin:               Yeah, great. And yeah, conversations like these always make me extremely optimistic for the future of Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. When I first got into it a handful of years ago, my main concern was that the government would shut it down. But thanks to the efforts of you, Dennis, and people like you we are creating the cultural and political capital necessary that nothing like that what happened in China will ever happen in the United States. So thank you very much. We appreciate your time very much Dennis and we'll talk another time.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks guys. Hopefully reach out to me if you'll be at the Texas Blockchain Council, I'll be there. And I should be around the Pacific Bitcoin event too as well. I'll be around that area, those dates. So reach out to me if you happen to be in the area.

Logan Chipkin:               Sounds great. Thanks Dennis.

Kent Halliburton:               Thanks so much, Dennis. Truly appreciate you sharing your wisdom and keep up the good work.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, that was an absolutely incredible conversation. And yeah, we're very appreciative for all the work that you do out there for us.

Dennis Porter:               Thanks guys. I'll see you soon.

Logan Chipkin:               Take care.

Logan Chipkin:               All right. I have a few minutes to hang around if other people wanna chat or have questions following up that conversation. I don't know if Will has time. I have a few, but in the meantime, I'll just say this was our SaaS, Mining's third Twitter spaces. We host these every single Thursday at 3:30 PM Eastern. We go for about an hour, give or take next week. We likely have Daniel Fromkin of Brains And Brains has a very interesting history. They were really some of the first people involved seriously in mining pools. So we're going to get into the history of mining pools and their importance now, and especially during kind of a bear market. What does that mean for Bitcoin miners and all that stuff, both from a technological and economic angle. So definitely come for that. We actually, we have a lot of exciting guests almost through the rest of 2022 to be honest. But certainly if there are people that you think we should speak with definitely feel free to DM me. You can just DM this Twitter account, the SA Mining Twitter account and we're more than happy to entertain your ideas for guests.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, thank you for laying that out, Logan. And on top of that we're still learning with these Twitter spaces and trying to make sure that whenever we're hosting 'em, that everyone who's out there listening that you're getting the most out of it. So if you have any ideas, any topics that you want us to touch on in particular, and especially if you wanna come up and participate in the discussion, we intentionally are leaving space at the end of these Twitter spaces with the guests to allow any of you guys out there who join these at 3:30 PM Eastern on Thursdays to come and participate in the conversation. And actually since I got you up here, Brian incredible book at says mine and we've got the book club, and we're appreciative of you putting that out there. I would like to, I guess, give you the floor here and just share with the audience a little bit about what led you to write the book and what you're hoping to accomplish with it. Maybe he is no longer by the mic

Logan Chipkin:               <laugh>. Yeah. Or he doesn't realize he's muted.

Will Szamosszegi:               Well, in that case, Logan point, the question to you, our internal Bitcoin expert, what did you take away from the book, <laugh>?

Logan Chipkin:               Yes as I might have mentioned to you privately, Brian very much frames the book as he describes himself as a bleeding heart capitalist which in a way is to me a hybrid of the left wing and right wing perspectives, at least in the United States. So it really ties in to our conversation with Dennis Porter. And as you know Will about me is I have certainly have my own kind of political ideology, but I'm very interested in how we can bring Bitcoin to all people of all political backgrounds. And so basically his book really hit home for me is that, and I think I have a feeling we'll talk about this with Jason Meyer when he's on the program, is you can be basically, let's say a right wing capitalist or a left leftwing socialist, and Bitcoin satisfies both of your political ambitions. The right wing version would be that Bitcoin secures private property rights. This is something Robert Breedlove is heavy on. That's kind of a right wing thing. It's very difficult to implement big government when the money itself is almost infinitely secure in terms of property rights, who owns what as it were. And then from a left wing perspective, you're drastically limiting the wealth inequality because you're ending the so-called canon effect whereby the early people to access the new money from the Federal Reserve become disproportionately wealthier than the people who get the money last. And of course, those people tend to be poor people already.

Logan Chipkin:               And of course, the whole energy and environment angle from a left wing perspective that we don't have to delve into again. And so I really like that is something I took away from the book. And I also liked his I think if I recall correctly, he really emphasized dollar cost averaging, which obviously this is not an investment in vice show, and I'm sure there are laws saying that if I give investment advice right now, I'm going to jail. So this is not advice, but I dunno, to me, if anyone's worried about Bitcoin's volatility, which is understandable to me, just dollar cost average, don't worry about it and just carry on with your life. That's my takeaway.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah, it's pretty incredible being in Bitcoin and when being exposed to Bitcoin this early, right? And it was one of those things that I had gone through when I first got in every, no matter when you get in, you think you're late once you really start learning about it. And then once you really really dive in, then you realize how early you are. I mean, it was mind blowing when I first realized that based on the Bitcoin protocol, that the last Bitcoin is gonna be mined in the year 2140. So I mean, being a part of this industry in the first 15 years you're one of the earliest adopters in the entire world. And just by nature of you being in this particular Twitter spaces, I mean, you're part of the early movement, you're part of the army here and at the very beginning, I mean, being able to go and be part of a conversation where you can come up on stage and speak with someone like Dennis and then hear how Dennis is participating and being part of the whole movement towards orange peeling politicians. I mean, it is pretty wild. And Logan, I mean, you've done such incredible work in helping do research with SA mining and figuring out how everything ties in on the energy side. And I mean, from your perspective, Logan, what do you think is the most important thing in Bitcoin that you could be working on right now if you're out there, you're not in the industry, but you're looking to get involved and participate, and you're a believer in what Bitcoin can stand for?

Logan Chipkin:               Yes, that's a great question. So okay, if I understand your question, which is a very interesting one, it's like, okay, if I'm not working in Bitcoin, what can I do to further Bitcoin? Number one, and it sounds tongue and cheek, but it's really true, is to really start buying Bitcoin and holding it on your private key, on your private wallet, incentives are very real. And if you own Bitcoin, if you start thinking about it as a store of value in the long run, you'll have a much greater just out of self interest. You'll want Bitcoin to prosper. So that's number one is like don't just talk about it. Don't just talk to talk, walk the walk. Really own Bitcoin anyway. It's good for you. And if you really think Bitcoin is the next global reserve asset, you'll wanna buy it anyway. Number two would be honestly, I would take up Dennis Porter's offers read the works that he shared, contact him if need be the Satoshi Action Fund, and see if you can get involved with local politicians.

Logan Chipkin:               I didn't quite realize until he was talking about it, how much more effective politics can be on a state level than on a national level. I've heard from different political podcasters, I listen to that on the local level. So even below the state level people are so apathetic that literally, if you're a handful of ideologues, for lack of a better word, can basically take over local politics. So look, it's something to think about. It sounds cheesy, but you really can be the change you wanna see in the world. And if you want Bitcoin to thrive, then go ahead and do that. So I would say number one, own Bitcoin. Number two work towards orange filling politicians. And I think number three would just be keep, If you feel like you're not knowledgeable enough about the topic every day, there are more ways to learn about Bitcoin.

Logan Chipkin:               So I would highly recommend that come. Look, we are an ideological minority, so come prepared when people are going to argue. And if I may kind of shamelessly plug the SaaS mining blog, we cover Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining all sorts of related topics related to energy as well. Of course, you have all sorts of podcasts. You have the SaaS Mining podcast of course, but you also have podcasts like what Bitcoin did with Peter McCormack. He's been going into the relationship between energy and Bitcoin mining recently. So I would really recommend that podcast as well. Also in terms of education, I would really recommend GE Swan's, Bitcoin Audible, where he basically reads kind of in depth articles about all different aspects of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and he provides commentary. So without overwhelming the audience, I won't give more, but those would be the three steps I would take.

Will Szamosszegi:               Yeah. Awesome, Logan. Well I think that's a good place to wrap it up but please, if you enjoyed this Twitter space, follow the accounts and keep tuning in every week. I'm sure that the conversations are gonna continue to be interesting. We're gonna be touching a lot of topics, and please let us know if there's something that you want us to touch on that we haven't touched on already. Thanks

Logan Chipkin:               Everyone. Absolutely. Thanks Will. Thanks everyone for joining. Talk to you next week. Bye.