Twitter Spaces Transcript: The Digital Chamber of Commerce with Tom Mapes
Tom Mapes of the Digital Chamber of Commerce joins Will Szamosszegi and Kent Halliburton to discuss the challenges and triumphs in normalizing Bitcoin in political halls of power.
Link to Audio:
Logan Chipkin (00:00:31):
Tom Mapes (00:00:32):
Hey, how are you? Can you hear me?
Logan Chipkin (00:00:35):
Yes, sir. I'm doing great. How areyou?
Tom Mapes (00:00:39):
Not bad Rain today here in dc
Logan Chipkin (00:00:42):
Same here in Philly.
Will Szamosszegi (00:01:21):
Hey, how's it going, Logan?
Logan Chipkin (00:01:23):
Hey, will. How are you?
Will Szamosszegi (00:01:25):
I'm doing great. Hey, Tom.
Tom Mapes (00:01:30):
Hey. Good to hear from you.
Will Szamosszegi (00:01:31):
Yeah. A long time. No speak. How haveyou been?
Tom Mapes (00:01:36):
Not bad. I was just saying, uh,rainy, rainy day here in DC So we're at that, we're at that time of year. It'sbeen dark and cold for a bit.
Will Szamosszegi (00:01:43):
Oh, yeah. Same. Same here. It, I, Igot a view right out over the, uh, over the city and it's looking pretty gloomy<laugh>.
Tom Mapes (00:01:55):
Oh, yeah. I was broken up LA in themiddle of the night last night with some heavy rain.
Logan Chipkin (00:02:01):
Well, now that the gang's all here,and I see Kent is here as well, we can go ahead and get started. Uh, my name'sLogan Chikin. I'm content manager with SaaS Mining, where we make Bitcoinmining with renewable energy accessible to re accessible to regular people.This is our weekly Twitter space, which we have almost every week at 3:30 PMEastern time. Uh, today we're joined by Tom Maps of the Digital Cha of theChamber of Digital Commerce. Sorry about that. Um, and so before we introduceTom, will, do you wanna introduce
Will Szamosszegi (00:02:32):
Yourself? Yeah. Hello everybody. Myname's William Sege. I'm the CEO and founder here at SA Mining, and I am veryexcited for this conversation today with you, Tom.
Tom Mapes (00:02:46):
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for havingme.
Kent Halliburton (00:02:49):
Yeah. Hey, Tom, great to meet you. Myname's Kent. I'm the president and COO here at SaaS Mining Operate, uh, theinternal affairs for the company. Uh, very eager to hear what the latest is onthe ground policy-wise and learn from you here in today's space.
Logan Chipkin (00:03:08):
Yeah, there's been some excitingdevelopments really even today, and I think yesterday too. So, Tom, maybeyou've been following that. Um, but before we get into that, Tom, do you justwant to introduce yourself and what you do and also, um, what exactly is theChamber of Digital Commerce?
Tom Mapes (00:03:24):
Hey, yeah, thanks again for havingme. Um, so yeah, as you mentioned, I, I represent the Chamber of DigitalCommerce, where I lead our, uh, mining initiative. Um, but the Chamber ofDigital Commerce was, uh, created about eight years ago by our, our ceo, PerryAnn. And, uh, the, the main focus of the digital chambers to promote, uh, theadvocacy of digital assets and blockchain technology. Um, mostly, mostly witha, uh, policy perspective, uh, throughout DC nationally and internationally.Um, you know, we're, we're, we're, we have over 200 members, um, ranging, you know,in all aspects of digital assets, blockchain, crypto, um, and, uh, and we haveabout, uh, 15 or so, um, minors, which is in the mining initiative where Ifocus on, um, you know, some of the largest publicly traded minors, uh,privately held minors, um, all the above. So, so we were the first, um, I I, Istarted about two years ago, um, with the digital chamber, and we noticed thatthere was a, a real, um, blind spot in the, in, uh, industry representationhere in dc.
And so Perry Ann and I got togetherand, and we set up the mining initiative, uh, here. And we were the first fullyfocused, uh, mining policy advocacy group, uh, in DC And, uh, my background, Icame here from the Department of Energy. So I came into this industry with, uh,Eric came into this work kind of with an energy background. Prior to that, Iwas on Capitol Hill where I worked for the, uh, chairman of the Energy NaturalResources Committee in the Senate. And, uh, prior to that was over in thehouse, uh, working for, um, now Senator Lomas. And, and she's, she's kind ofone of the biggest proponents of, of this industry throughout Congress. Sothat's a quick high level on my background.
Logan Chipkin (00:05:21):
Well, I didn't realize you workedwith, uh, Senator Lumas. I'm a huge fan for obvious reasons. Uh, yeah, she'scool. She, she's hardcore.
Tom Mapes (00:05:31):
Yeah. It's, it's, it's fun to, uh,it's fun to kind of see her go from she was, and, and, and frankly, I wasn'toverly involved in the world back when I worked for her either. And kind of, Iremember some of the earliest conversations with her when she was a housemember. And then, um, it just happens to, uh, coincide with her coming to theSenate, and she's, she's kind of taking the torch and she, she really is thetorch bearer for, for, uh, a, a lot of the Senate, uh, definitely the Senate,if not all Congress.
Logan Chipkin (00:05:58):
Yeah, it's hard to think of someone,um, I can think of who is kind of better than her in the halls of power. Um,but anyway, uh, putting her aside, at least for now, could you tell us aboutthe National Action plan for blockchain that you guys are working on? And also,what actionable steps are you calling for from the US government, at leastthese days?
Tom Mapes (00:06:20):
Well, in ter, in, in terms of the MImining in initiative or kind of, uh, uh, as a whole, because that's kind of a,a loaded question. I'll focus on the mining work that, that we're doing here.Um, you know, it, it's, it's one of those things where, uh, uh, on the miningfront, it's an, ultimately, at the end of the day, it's an energy play. Um,historically, a lot of the policy work and activism throughout DC has beenfocused in the financial services side of the world, you know, working with S Ec, cftc, treasury, things like that, which, which is a, as it should be, butparticularly for minors, the regulation, you know, I, and we feel is gonna comemore of with an energy focus. You know, as you guys know, who work in thisworld, mining at the end of the day, is an energy play, and energy is one ofthe most regulated industries in the world, so you better believe that, youknow, it's not quite there yet, but at some point, this is gonna start gettingregulated through an energy lens.
And what, uh, our, our main focusright now with the mining initiative is kind of more of a, you know, gettingout, starting to build these relationships on the ground, um, before, you know,establishing these relationships so you have a seat at the table when they areultimately writing these policies, making this, you know, putting thisregulation together, things of that nature. Because, um, ultimately around,around, you know, policy, activism, policy work, it, it is that relationshipbuilding, it's getting to know us in the industry, um, you know, putting a faceto the, to the industry, having a personal touch. You know, we're we, we seeourselves as a, um, a resource for these policy makers. So we, we constantlyask them if they have any questions to reach out to us, things like that. Um,but as I mentioned there, there's really no, right now in the mining front, anypointed legislation.
I know that a couple days ago, um, apiece of legislation was dropped by from Senator Mark, uh, Marky Merley andCongressman Huffman, um, is for a, uh, it was really the first kind of pointedlegislation that is calling for the EPA to establish a, uh, a study on, on theindustry. Um, so you're gonna see more and more of things like that happening.Um, so we're, we're working behind the scenes with groups like the epa,department of Energy, Fe among others, and, um, also offering some of our own,you know, uh, thoughts on potential legislation, things like that.
Logan Chipkin (00:08:55):
So you talk about energy, um, is thatthe most important thing that politicians tend to misunderstand when it comesto mining and maybe blockchain more generally, but if you can only speak tomining, that's perfectly fine. I'm just curious.
Tom Mapes (00:09:10):
Well, it's a loaded question. Uh, asyou mentioned policymakers in terms of, uh, digital assets, crypto as a whole,there, there's a lot, you know, you know, it's, it's such a new and emergingmarket. I, I don't wanna, you know, speak ill of any of them, but it, it's,there's, there's a steep learning curve here, and there's not enough time inthe day for them to learn every single nuance of our industry. You know, they,they, we spend 24 hours a day in this world. They, they're lucky to get 10minutes a week thinking about this. So, so, you know, there, there's, there's alot of education, a lot of work to be done, and that's why groups like us existto, um, you know, point them in the correct direction. So they're not gettingtheir information from, you know, uh, incorrect sources or, or sources outthere who have a bone to pick, uh, an anti, uh, industry, things like that.
Um, in terms of the mining fr uh,front, I, I think there's a great opportunity for miners in the industry as awhole to use energy as a, a comfortable, um, issue that members know,particularly energy members. Um, you know, I go in there and I, I talk to, uh,I talk to, uh, members who are, you know, older guys down in Texas or older,older men and women in, in Congress that are down in Texas or, or have, havespent their careers focusing on energy policy and things like that. Andfrankly, they're not gonna wrap their heads around, uh, digital assets, cryptoand things like that. But energy's kind of a, a, an issue area where theyunderstand, and, and it's building data centers in their districts, jobcreation, tax revenues, uh, energy development, grid stability, reliability,infrastructure, build out, things like that. So, so it's just another avenue tokind of, uh, uh, another issue area where they, they might be able to relate toa little bit better.
Will Szamosszegi (00:11:00):
Yeah. I, I feel like, Tom, you've gota really interesting background regarding, uh, not only the energy side, butalso your ties in, in Washington DC and understanding how a lot of these peopleoutside of the traditional Bitcoin or or broader blockchain circles think. Andso with that in mind, I'm curious as to what you think the miners today couldbe doing better, and, uh, going off of that even, what are some of the thingsyou think are coming down the pipeline in regards to policy with everythinghappening right now with all the turmoils surrounding FTX and, and what we'reseeing in the news, and just how, how you think that the best way miners cancan act right now in the market to try and make sure that people understand,Hey, this is a market that is early, but is gonna be around for a long time.Uh, it improves the energy sector in many ways, and this is a really, anindustry that you wanna invite over the long run and, and not try and alienatebecause of all the business and, and, uh, and benefits that Bitcoin mining canbring to different communities.
Tom Mapes (00:12:11):
I, I think the key thing is, and whatwe're really trying to stress to our, our members and, and other minors in theindustry is the transparency, the data, these conversations coming to talk tothese policy makers, regulators, um, things of that nature. Um, as, as youguys, I'm sure, as you guys all followed, um, the White House report comingfrom the O S T P on, uh, energy use within the industry, there's some things inthere we could live with, but a lot of it was a lot of negative data skewedfrom, uh, a third party source that's, um, you know, has some of their ownbiases against the industry. And, and frankly, that fits some of the narrativethat, that, uh, the administration's looking to lean into. So, so we've heldseveral conversations with the EPA among others, and their, um, key takeaway tous is, um, uh, data more transparency.
The more data they have, the moreunderstanding they can have, and really make educated and, and thoughtfulpolicies and, and regulations on this, uh, industry. Um, as you mentioned, wetry to, uh, here at the Digital Chamber, among other things, we have fly-ins toDC next month. We're doing one to New York, uh, state to, um, kind of af afterthe governor recently signed on, uh, signed that bill up there, um, kind ofanti, uh, uh, you know, behind the mean mining up there. Um, you know, fly-ins,government, uh, meetings like that. Uh, this past year alone, we held over 75meetings with members of Congress. Uh, we held five briefings for different,uh, committees throughout Congress, including, um, house Energy, uh, commerce,uh, Senate, ag House Ag, blockchain Caucus, um, just to name a few. And so it,it's, we get our members in there talking direct, direct to the mostlystaffers. It is mostly staff that they're speaking with, and they're talkingdirectly one-on-one or, or in a group setting with the, with these staffersand, and our mining members. And it's really, really, um, you know, like Isaid, getting, building those relationships, getting them the information, thestats, the data points, the job creations, the local community, telling thosepersonalized stories about how this is helping these local communities, thingslike that is really important when you're, when you're speaking to, to thesemembers.
Kent Halliburton (00:14:53):
Hey, Tom Kent here. Um, I'm curious,you know, there's been a dialogue going on, at least on Twitter since FTX blowup about, um, the difference, uh, between Bitcoin and the rest of the cryptoassets. Are you finding that the politicians that you're speaking with or thedigital ca chamber, uh, is speaking with, are starting to separate those twoideas? Or is everything still just being lumped into crypto?
Tom Mapes (00:15:22):
Frankly, I, I would say generallyit's still lumped in when you go into these offices. I'll be honest, eachoffice has different levels of knowledge in this area. You get a staffer in oneoffice who might know the industry, you know, has, has, has a bit of knowledgein the industry, and you have other offices that are just a blank slate. So itreally depends. Office to office. And, and I can give an example of, of kind ofwhat we're going into. I mentioned, um, we held a briefing with the, uh, energyand Congress oversight, uh, subcommittee, uh, almost a year ago now, I guess itwas last January. And so before that, uh, before that briefing, we went andspoke with each, uh, member, each member of Congress staff who was on thatcommittee, and, and just leading up to it, just give 'em a little, you know,download before they went into the hearing, get, get to know the industry more,just give 'em a little background, things like that.
I would say eight outta 10 offices,particularly on the, on the Democratic side. Uh, the first question was proofof work versus proof of stake. What's the difference? And why don't we all justmove to proof of Stick? Because they read the news, they, they see theheadline, proof of stake, clean, you know, no less energy, but things likethat. So that, that's, that's one question we really get hit with a lot isexplaining that why, why proof of work is, is important, why it could helpbuild energy, uh, you know, energy build out things like that. And then a a,another example is we were speaking with, uh, chair Benham from the cftc, and,uh, we had some of our mining members with us, and we were explaining to himhow this could be, you know, this is, this is a technology that could reallyhelp develop energy moving forward and things like that.
And, and, you know, we use, we're,we're giving them, we're giving 'em data points, we're talking with them, we'retrying to explain it, have 'em con, you know, really get to know the industry.And then the, the infamous, you know, it uses as much, maybe not infamous, butthe cloud, the example a lot of people use is it uses less power than Christmaslights every year. And he stops us right there and says, yeah, but I, I couldsee Christmas lights and, and they make me happy in Christmas time. What's theutility of Bitcoin or, or, or digital assets as a whole? And, and I think theindustry could do a better job, uh, on all, all facets, not just mining ofexplaining why this technology is important for the everyday average personand, and, and really explain that utility among, you know, as well as theenergy use, uh, op opportunities and things like that.
Kent Halliburton (00:18:08):
It's a great point, really. I think,um, you know, you see the charts with the adoption rates of various countries,and it's clear when you've got a stable currency that the adoption rates arejust gonna be lowered. I think that's one of the uphill battles that we as anindustry are facing, is that it's not quite as natural of a use case becausethe inflation, uh, that we're experiencing just isn't enough to bring enoughpain to make it obvious. But one of the, one of the points that I'm quitecurious about is, you know, there's always this risk, uh, in today's politicalclimate of falling into one side or the other side of the aisle. And I thinkthat as an industry, we position ourselves much better if we can avoid gettingcaptured by one party or the other in the Talking Points game. Um, do you seethat as possible, or do you see that it's already too late and, uh, Bitcoin andhas fallen into like the, the red side of the aisle at this point?
Tom Mapes (00:19:13):
No, I, I 100% agree with you. Um,this particular issue should be, it, it, it's, I see it as one of the fewremaining opportunities of, of, uh, you know, nonpartisan, uh, both sides ofthe aisle getting together and, and working together on, on an issue. Um,obviously the, it's kind of leaning a little more r right now, but I see, uh, Isee Dennis on there. Hey, Dennis. He's working with his, his state senator is,uh, Ron Widen in, in Oregon, who, who's a democrat, who, who's, uh, gettinginvolved in this world. I know our summit last year, um, was held last May in,in, uh, in and Dennis's group's doing a lot of great work too. So TOI ActionFund checked them out as well. Um, they're doing a lot of state level work. Um,but, uh, last year, our summit in May, um, I know we had Senator Booker there,Senator Joe Brand on the, on the left, and Senator Luis and, uh, Senator Daneson the right.
So you're, you're able to get thesemixes and, and I will be honest, um, the, the DS we talked to, a lot of themare into it. Um, and, and, and they really, like the case uses for theunderbanked and the opportunities for, for these, uh, less privileged areas andthings like that. And, and, and it's, uh, you know, kind of helps create alittle level playing field. They get, uh, concerned some time on the consumerside of things when, when you have the FTX is happening and things like that.So obviously both sides are leaning in on this one, but, um, um, you know,that's always gonna be at the top of the mind on, on on their sideparticularly. And, uh, going back to the, the, the proof of work, uh, issue, I,I, I know I've had conversations with democratic staffs who, who are, you know,we, we like the industry.
There's a lot of great ideassupporting the industry, things like that. We can't quite get behind the, theenergy use and the, the mining, um, right now. So, so that, that's been a bitof a, that's been a bit of a snag. You know, some, some understand it some,and, and it's really educating them and getting them to understand theopportunities of how this could, uh, build renewables. This could, you know,abandon wells. You're, you're, the flare gas is already gonna be there. Whydon't we, we use this stranded energy that otherwise is just gonna get wastedout, out in, you know, I, I explain this too. Whenever I speak with people, youcan name any energy source you want in this industry, can help in somecapacity, nuclear energy, they're, they're gonna start deploying small modularreactors at some point. It's not quite there yet, but mining could be a greatcase use for this, you know, before you, before you start putting it outelsewhere, you, you could start dropping those around the country and test 'emout and things like that. Um, flare gas, I just mentioned renewables, um, youknow, you could build a closed loop circuit and run it off that and ultimatelystart selling out excess capacity on, on these power lines that are ultimatelygonna, if we're gonna electrify the, the gr the country more, we're gonna need,you know, more offtake. So, you know, things like that, they can tick down anyenergy use here. And, and that's where we really try to explain.
Logan Chipkin (00:22:29):
I'm glad you take that, um, angle.Yeah, I was, uh, writing somewhere. I don't remember where, but, um, it seemslike 2022 is kind of the year that the energy narrative has really taken off.Um, so it's good to hear that you are, um, leveraging that to the best of yourability. Um, so I want, and you know, I know you're involved, Tom, with, uh,mostly mining, but I wonder, do you see a difference at all between howpoliticians perceive mining versus other potential blockchain use cases? Or isthat outside your purview?
Tom Mapes (00:23:01):
No, I, I see it out there. Um, thereare definitely those members and, and I think that I, I think it, there'snothing wrong with it that are, are leaning into the, um, really supporting theblockchain test uses and, and the opportunities for that, uh, you know, inpeople's day-to-day lives. Um, I, I definitely see, see some of that. And, and,and, and I, we've definitely spoken with members that are kind of, I like theidea of blockchain and how that could ultimately, um, benefit, uh, you know,society on a, on a day-to-day, um, level. But, you know, the mining and kind ofthe financial side of things, maybe not, not for them. So that is definitelyout there, there. Um, one of the first real ways I I, I got into this space, tobe honest with you, is, is as I mentioned as the Department of Energy and, andI saw, um, the mining aside, um, a lot of energy companies are, were using theblockchain to, you know, a molecule comes outta the ground in a molecule of oilor gas comes outta the ground in, in Texas, let's say she's make making upplaces and it's shipping over to, you know, uh, Germany or something, you know,wherever it's going.
And, and they're able to track it theentire way and they could tell you where it came from and who's touched it andthings like that. So that, that, that was one way among others that I, that Igot into this world. And I know a lot of energy companies are starting to useit that way. I know, uh, folks are talking about, um, you know, some voting,uh, you know, voting on blockchain, uh, health records on, on blockchain,things like that. So, so a lot of these, uh, uh, you know, day-to-day uses, uh,uh, of people, you know, some members definitely have, have, uh, gotten behindthat front.
Will Szamosszegi (00:24:50):
Yeah. That's great. And, uh, alsohuge shout out to, uh, Dennis, who was just in here. Um, he, we've spoken withhim about some of the work that he's been doing with the Satoshi Action Fund.And I was curious, uh, from your perspective, what's some of the things thatyou guys have tried be been focused on to promote Bitcoin or promote knowledgearound, uh, Bitcoin mining? What are some of the, the steps that you guys aretaking in particular to try and help make sure that the regulation that'scrafted around the mining industry, um, promotes the growth of the industryrather than, um, kind of just leaving it up to chance, um, and whatever thepoliticians are currently thinking?
Tom Mapes (00:25:34):
Well, you mentioned, uh, Dennis andthe work they're doing, um, and we work very closely, hand in hand with them.Uh, they kind of focus on the state level, and frankly, that's where a lot ofthis is going to bubble up from. Um, it, it's, it's working with these, youknow, state and federal level, uh, regulators and policy makers. So they're notputting, um, you know, stress on overburdensome, reg regulations on, on theindustries and things like that. Um, you know, New York is, is a great, uh,test case. We, we've been heavily involved up there. Um, you know, they, theysigned that bill, uh, which ultimately, in the grand scheme of things, whatpeople, uh, I don't know how how deep you guys have dove into the New Yorkbill, but ultimately it, it, it put a two year moratorium on behind the meter,um, carbon emitting, uh, power plants.
It, so it, it, it's a very smallniche, uh, group that are using that. And there's a couple reasons that we, we,we felt it was necessary to go up there and, and fight that a bit, even thoughit only, it only impacts a, a handful of miners and, and frankly, most minersare, are using alternative methods. But if you're watching any of the floordebate up there, these members, it, it, they're, it's ways for them to startkind of piece by piece, making your life a little more difficult or hamstringthe industry a bit. Um, you know, on the floor they're starting, they're,they're starting to talk about that's one way for them to get into it. And thenthe next thing they're gonna say is, you know, yeah, fo behind the meter,fossil minting power plants, um, we don't want you to use that next thing.
They're gonna say, well, we don't, wedon't want, even if you're running now, they're, now, there's articles comingout that, uh, up in Niagara, um, they're not happy with, uh, using hydro for,for, uh, mining. And, and that's one of the cleanest sources of energy. So isit the energy use or, or is this kind of way for them to go after the energyuse period? Ultimately, I just see them not wanting, uh, you to be able to usepower or electricity for, for these mining operations. Obviously it could, youknow, bit dramatic, but, but you know, it is not too farfetched to think thatthat's how they're gonna start coming after you and, and singling out oneindustry to say that you cannot, you, you're, at the end of the day, you'rejust a consumer of power. You cannot use the electricity here for within the,you know, the private, your own private use, uh, buying legally from a, uh, uh,you know, whether you're producing it or buying it off the grid.
Um, it, it's just, and that's, that'swhy, you know, state by state, uh, fed, ultimately it's gonna bubble upfederally is, is things we're trying to work with, you know, the policymakersand the regulatory front to kind of get away from that and, and make surethey're not coming after the industry. Singling out. The industry is tellingyou, uh, what power sources you can use when you cannot use power. Um, youknow, a lot of these members, I, I was looking at the other day, um, the billthat dropped federally, um, uh, Huffman, Merck Merley and Mark, um, and, youknow, the, these are members that are, are huge proponents of going green,which I, I think a lot of people are, and electric vehicles and things likethat, they never talk about the amount of, you know, when they, when they comeafter our industry, they say mining uses this much, uh, causes this manyemissions, things like that.
The power producers are the onescausing, you know, the emissions are coming from the, the power supplier thatyou're buying it from. The actual mines are just plugging into electricity andrunning, running computers. So, so no one ever says your electric car isemitting, um, you know, is, is carbon emitting, but for some reason, you know,that's just a computer. Uh, Tesla's just a computer at the end of the day, andrunning Asics is just running computers. So it, it's that, that's alwaysfrustrating with these members. It's, it's, it's more so a lot of thesemembers, it, it's a way for them to kind of come, come at the industry a bitfor an industry that, you know, they don't support. So the low hanging fruitis, uh, you know, you create energy, you know, you use too much energy, you'reemitting carbon, things like that. And, and, you know, that's, that's a, um, anissue people really feel passionate about and get emotional behind, and it'seasy way to build support from these grassroots, uh, efforts.
Logan Chipkin (00:30:02):
So, Tom, speaking of kind of tryingto persuade people, do you find that you have to adjust your message dependingon whether you're speaking to politicians on one side of the aisle or theother? Or do you generally, uh, you, you don't care who the audience is, as itwere, and you just explain the nuts and bolts regardless?
Tom Mapes (00:30:20):
Yeah, majority is the same because wehave a good story to tell a a and frankly, a a lot of, um, you know, there,there, there's a good story to tell, particularly the energy development, the,you know, transitioning to a cleaner alternative. I, I think most members onboth sides of the aisle are behind that, what, whatever, you know, generally ifwe get to a cleaner alternative, it, it's ultimately gonna lead to cheaperenergy as well. Most people think, and, and you know, it, it's, it's, uh, someof the, you know, the old coal states and things like that, it, it's, it's notas much as the actual energy as the jobs that they're worried about losing in theirdistricts and things like that. So, you know, industries like ours really givean opportunity to bring some, bring some industry and jobs back into theirdistricts, which might otherwise be forgotten, uh, as certain technologieschange and, and time goes on.
Um, most of the time we stay in thesame lane. But, uh, uh, I just recently we were meeting with actually, um, amember of congress, um, leadership, and we were meeting with their staff and wewere explaining all the great opportunities that this industry has in, youknow, renewables and the energy transition and, and you know, we werehighlighting our members, things like that, and they stopped us halfway throughand said, Hey, we support you guys. You guys are using energy. You guys shouldown it. Say, say you want more energy build on energy, using energy is not bad.And, and so you do, you do run into that which, which is frankly, you know,point's good to hear, but, but for the most part it's, it's staying on, onmessage and just highlighting all the, all the great things the industry can dobecause, because we do have the data to, to back it up. We do have the storiesto back it up, things like that.
Logan Chipkin (00:32:12):
Yes, agreed. That we definitely havethe stories to back it up. Um, before our next question, I just wanna tell theaudience that you're more than welcome to raise your hand, and we will gladlybring you on stage if you have a question for Tom or for Kent or Will ormyself. Um, and with that, Kent, I think you had, uh, another question for Tom.
Kent Halliburton (00:32:31):
Yeah, I, um, I was curious, Tom,with, uh, with your perspective over time, um, I'm curious how things havechanged with the dialogue that you're having now as compared to when you firststarted between politicians. Do you notice, um, that they are more educated andfurther along the game, or are you still starting at ground zero, um, withthese conversations around mining and energy?
Tom Mapes (00:33:02):
They're, they're, they're, they'redefinitely growing. It's, it's, it's a slow grow, but they're definitelygrowing. Uh, one example is, and I'm, I wanna look it up to make sure I'mcorrect on it. I put it on Twitter a few weeks back. Um, Congressman Griffithin, uh, Virginia, he, um, last January we went into his office cuz he was onEnergy and Congress oversight, and he was going into the hearing and he's in a,a rural area of Virginia, and his office was kind of like, you know, what'sthis mining stuff? Why, you know, we're a, we're a former, you know, we're anenergy producing area, rural area, agriculture area. What is Bitcoin mining?You know, you know, one of those kind of conversations and we explain it to 'emthat there's opportunity for, um, you know, opportunity for these rural areasthat, you know, might otherwise be kind of, I don't wanna use the wordforgotten, but you know, not as the same top of mind around the country as theyonce might have been.
And, uh, so we're explaining to 'em,you know, there's an opportunity as, as maybe certain, certain, uh, industriesin your area are, are drying up. This is an, this is, uh, something that cancome in, use you, you know, build out in these rural areas, jobs and thingslike that. And so this particular example, you know, they kind of got a littleintrigued by it. They really didn't know a lot about it before it. Next thing Iknow, I get an email from his, uh, staff, uh, and he sends me an article fromOctober in their local newspaper, and it's, uh, a headline is Digital CurrencyCompany Opens in Taswell County, and their boss, it's in Bluefield, Virginia.And their boss is, uh, quoted in how quoted in the article that's a significantdevelopment and how it's offering new economic opportunities in their district.And, and, you know, you could look it up and it goes kind of more and more andexplain into it, but that's just one example of a conversation we had is we'regoing around educating them, you know, saying, Hey, you know, lean into this,this, this, this could be an opportunity for your district.
Things like that. And, and it'sinteresting to see, you know, exact cases like that play out. So it'sdefinitely, it's definitely, it's not, not gonna happen overnight, butcontinuing these, um, you could tell these offices are learning more and moreand, and, you know, it's gaining a lot of interest around here in the past yearor so.
Will Szamosszegi (00:35:22):
Yeah. Going off of that, uh, theconversations you, you've been having, uh, there's one big piece of news that,uh, just came out recently and it's around, uh, Senator Elizabeth Warren andthe introduction of the Digital Asset Anti-Money Laundering Act. And this is, Imean, in some of the circles I've been speaking, uh, with people that I know,uh, it seems I've been hearing a lot of opinions and I'd be very curious, uh,before trying to color your view or anything to, to get your take on, on reallywhat this means for our industry. Um, for, for everyone who's listening whohasn't really dove into it yet, uh, this is a bill that would require custodialand self custodial wallet providers and minors to implement K y C systems. And,uh, particularly it calls out certain privacy tools such as Coin Joinin, uh,which is, uh, a tool that users can use to try and maintain their privacy, uh,when utilizing Bitcoin. Um, so I'll, I'll pause there and let you take ithowever you want, Tom, but, uh, very, very curious. This was actually the onequestion that coming into this conversation, I, I was really curious to getyour, your opinions on.
Tom Mapes (00:36:38):
Yeah, as you mentioned, I mean, Ithink you all know where Elizabeth Warren stands on this, uh, industry and, andlong before, you know, any of the ftx um, issues, uh, you know, in, in theprevious, uh, kind of the summer we had before that it's, it's one of thosethings where following ftx, these members, particularly those who are againstthe industry, are looking for any piece of legislation that could slap downand, and throw messaging around and say, look at, we're, we're trying toregulate this. We're trying to put policy around it. This bill, at least inthis Congress, is not going anywhere. We have, they have about a week left herein dc then they're heading outta town for the year, and then we start a newCongress, so likely may be introduced again. Um, I know, um, it, it, it was,um, Kansas, um, shoot, I'm drawing senator from Kansas that was, uh, co-sponsorRod Marshall, it was co-sponsor, was Senator Marshall, Republican from, uh, uh,Kansas.
I know we've, we've had conversationswith his staff and they said they are, you know, it is not perfect, but they,they, they wanna work with the industry and figure out a way to get, you know,at least get our input on it. Um, because frankly, this one, as far as we know,didn't really have any industry input and things like that. Um, thisparticular, I'm not shocked by this piece of legislation. It's, frankly, Idon't support it. That's me speaking personally, not on behalf of, um, youknow, anyone else. Um, I, I don't see many positives in it. Um, but it, it goesto the, as I mentioned, these members are gonna look for ways to over,over-regulate, over, make policies that, that they want to have put their nameon it, say, look at, we're here trying to clamp down on the industry, and theindustry is, is getting upset.
And they, every time we try toindustry claims they want regulation and, and guidelines and, and parameterson, on how to to work here. And then anytime we offer anything, they scream andyell from the rafters and, and, um, you know, they're not willing to work withus. So, so I do want a temper some expectations with that. Um, it's not my cupof tea, this legislation, but, but I, I, I, I don't see it, um, you know,particularly this congress going anywhere and into the next, uh, you know,groups like ours have a job to do, to get in there and, and, and, and educatethese, these, these members and, and get the industry's voice there to explainto them why this would be detrimental.
Logan Chipkin (00:39:27):
Do you think that this legislationwill significantly hurt, uh, the United States, um, ability to be the worldlater in Bitcoin or in the bitcoin industry?
Tom Mapes (00:39:42):
I think it's one of those things,and, and as you guys know, um, when we, when we speak with policymakers,regulators and things like that, it's, it's, as you're drafting these policiesand these bills and this regulation, uh, you, you sh you don't want to be overburdensomeon the industry because a as everyone here knows, the industry is just gonna goelsewhere. We're just gonna go to, you know, other countries, other areas ofthe world. And the United States is the United States, among many reasons. Uh,we were always for the longest time to able to harness these, thesetechnologies, and we're always innovators, and we have the best and thebrightest over here and, and things like that. And, and, and making burdensomerestrictions, uh, whether it be, you know, the moratorium up in New York minor,you know, we try to convey to the governor there, Hey, it's not like you'regonna, the industry's going away.
It's, it's not going anywhere.They're just gonna move, you know, in terms of a high level, uh, piece. They'rejust gonna move across the, the state line. They can move to Pennsylvania.It's, you know, on certain parts of the state a few miles away. So, so, and inthis case, with, with the Warren and Marshall language, if you're gonna createburdensome regulation, these companies and these industries will just goelsewhere. And, and that'll be the detriment, you know, that'd be our owndetriment. That'd be our own doing. And, and we'd rather be here being theworldwide leaders in, in advancing these technologies and, and this newemerging industry, you know, these new emerging industries rather than pushingit elsewhere.
Logan Chipkin (00:41:14):
Yeah, I think, uh, something I'vebeen thinking about recently is if you fundamentally don't think Bitcoin hasvalue, then it makes sense that, um, all of the energy intensity activitiesthat Bitcoin mining, uh, uh, needs and, and everything else, you would see thatas just a waste. So from that perspective, it kind of makes sense. Um, so, butthen on the other hand, you know, to explain to people why Bitcoin has value,you almost necessarily have to explain all of the downsides of fiat money. Andto a lot of people, they think basically fiat money is the system, the, andthere's no reason to improve upon the incumbent. And they think inflation isjust kind of, uh, a law of physics, as it were, and it's natural and it'snormal. So why would you have, uh, fake money backed by nothing? Uh, so myguess would be that's what, uh, I, uh, Elizabeth Warren thinks. I, I even saw aheadline today on Twitter. She said something like, buying Bitcoin is likebuying air. I don't know if you saw that, but, uh, I thought, you know what?That's actually kind of a, probably an accurate way, that's probably anaccurate way that a lot of the enemies of Bitcoin or critics, I should say, letme not be so aggressive. That's how they see it. They see it as we're just likeblowing air and wasting electricity.
Tom Mapes (00:42:31):
100%. That goes back to theconversations we've had with, with folks like Chair Benham of, you know, theindustry as a whole. Obviously I think there's a great story to tell and theenergy of the mining and things like that, but, um, the utility of the, um,technology, I, I think everyone has, um, you know, kind of a call to action ofsorts would be everyone to kind of get that industry as a whole, everyone inour, in our world, in our ecosystem, if they could do a better job ofexplaining that utility down to the basic, you know, just, just a quick one ortwo lines, basic, what is this? You know, I, I think about my 75 year oldmother explaining to her what this technology is. You know, it, it's, it's,it's not the easiest thing to explain. It's not the most concise thing.
And, and, you know, people like uswho live in these, these worlds and, and wanna sit and talk about this and hearabout this are gonna get into deep conversations about FIA and, and inflationand, and things like that. The average person, you know, the average mom anddad with three kids going to work, buying groceries, things like that aren'tgonna have the time or, or the care, frankly, to dive into, uh, this. So it,it's, it's explaining the utilities, the use case, why this can make people'slives better, you know, personal case studies to really identify with, with theuse of this. And, and as to, you know, everyone equates it with, uh, you know,one of the easiest, uh, examples people used the internet of 20 and 30 yearsago when the internet first came out, it was clunky. It was just, uh,scientists when they're building it, were huge computers in, in, uh,universities, and now we're sitting here on a Twitter spaces with a computer inour pocket. You know, it, it, it's, it's, it's a day-to-day, um, tool that weuse to make our lives better. And, and I think we need to do a better job ofexplaining every, everyone does, um, uh, do a better job of explaining theutility of this.
Logan Chipkin (00:44:33):
Yeah. Uh, agreed. I have, uh, I had athought actually, but before I get to that, I wanna just do a quick reset ofthe room. Uh, you're here with SaaS Mining and our guest, uh, Tom Maps of theChamber of Digital Commerce. I see we have some new people here. So just to letyou know, we have about 17 minutes left, so if you have a question or if youhave something to say, uh, whether for Tom or for the SaaS mining team, feelfree to raise your hand. And last thing before I ask my next, uh, before Ioffer my next thought, is, um, our latest facility that is the latest, uh,Bitcoin mining facility, renewable bitcoin mining facility of SaaS mining isalmost at capacity. And for the holiday season, we are bypassing the wait listso that you can purchase your mining rigs directly at our website, www.samining.com.
As bitcoin as we know, the best timeto get into Bitcoin or Bitcoin mining is during a bear market, since eventuallythe number will go up. So feel free to, uh, go on our website and check us out.And of course, if you have any questions, feel free to DM either me, uh, thatis the SAS mining account, or Will or Kent. Uh, and so with that, um, Tom, Iwas thinking, you know, instead of explaining the utility of Bitcoin to someonelike Elizabeth Warren, you know, I'm really beating up on her. I'm just usingher as kind of the stand in for the critics of Bitcoin. What if we could justbypass that and talk about the energy angle directly? You know, as I said, 2022really was the year of the green Bitcoin narrative as it were. So if we say,okay, forget about, you're not gonna be sold on Bitcoin, that's fine.
Just understand that here is whatBitcoin miners will do. And you don't, you can think that all the Bitcoinminers are delusional and they're wasting their money. Nevertheless, they areminers of last, they are buyers rather of last resort when it comes to energy.They can co-locate with energy with any energy source. As you were saying, Tom,they're source agnostic and they're basically location agnostic in so, so longas they can access the internet and that sort of thing. Um, so I wonder ifthat's a good angle to sell people on it. And plus you get right to the energyfud that a lot of people have in the first place.
Tom Mapes (00:46:32):
I wish there, there, uh, it were thateasy. It would make my life a lot easier. Um, and, and you know, as we all knowthat, that that's true, but these members like her who are against this miningof any usage, it could be the cleanest, greenest, whatever, it's, it's energyuse. They believe we should, we should, you know, their, their thoughts on, onenergy usage as a whole, and I I say they is like-minded members of hers. Youcan, you guys can gotta figure out who they are. I don't wanna name names oranything like that, but anyone like-minded of her with that, um, angle is theyare of the impression that we should not, uh, you know, energy use as a wholeunless absolutely necessary is bad. And, and they wanna curb that as a whole.And that goes back to my point of, of the New York stuff.
And I like using New York, just cuzit's kind of a, a smaller variation of a national story. But the woman who,who, um, sponsored the bill up in New York and, and you, you guys are welcometo look into her, Anna Hells is a huge, you know, um, climate activist, uh, youknow, runs in those kind of groups. And, um, on the floor when she was debatingher ba uh, bill and it, it, it turned into from the bill being a, you'reproducing carbon. We don't like that, which, right, wrong, or indifferent. I, Ithink people could argue both sides of, of, you know, using carbon emitting fossilpower or things like that. But the debate quickly, uh, transition into shedoesn't want the industry using electricity period in her districts, and theydon't want the electrons being used for anything of that they deem, um,unnecessary. So that's kind of what you're dealing with here. You, you, youcould have the greatest cleanest operation running and, and it's the, it's justthe idea that you are using power that otherwise in their minds doesn't need tobe used or turn on. They see it as, as an overall negative. A and, and, youknow, uh, I think most will disagree, most most think power usage and powerdevelopment makes our lives easier and things like that. But, but that's kindof what you're ru you're running into here.
Logan Chipkin (00:48:50):
Yeah, I hear that. Um, and maybe I'mbeing naive, but I just wonder if you explain to them, okay, from theirperspective, surely they'd be in favor of an increased renewable energycapacity, uh, that humanity is consuming. Well, let, let's just say that'strue. Then there are renewable energy projects that will literally only beviable if there are Bitcoin miners who are willing to serve as buyer of theirenergy. Do you think that would have any purchase with these people?
Tom Mapes (00:49:22):
Well, I've, I've, I've talked to 'emall about it and, um, frankly that they point to the, uh, same stats that the OS D P report used, uh, uh, the degrees of the world, decons, stats of theworld, things like that. You know, they, they say, you know, they, they pointto the headlines that it's burning. You know, we're using more power thancountries and, and why are we doing this? There's no utility, things like that.And, and they, they point to all those conversations that fit their narrativeand, and kind of go in that direction. Um, yeah, I mean, I mean, that, that'smy, my day-to-day is going in there and, and speaking with, with members andstaff like that and, and, and it's, it's energy use for them, period is tough.Particularly when they, when they don't agree with the use of it or what it'suse four.
Tom, I just, one thing to add, sorry.One thing to add is, is you have to keep in mind particularly members of her,you know, uh, kind of same thought is, is their, their main focus is theconsumer protection angle. And, um, they see miners using power as power thatotherwise could go to the consumers, which isn't always black and white likethat. And, and they don't see it any other way. So that's, that's, that'sanother, they see that they, they believe that it's taking power that otherwisecould be used by consumers raising rates, things like that, where a a as weshow them, we show them stats and numbers and everything that actually issometimes contrary. And, and this is a lot of times is, is, uh, you know, powerof last resort, your energy of last resort, things like that. But it's, uh,like I said, my my life would be easier if, if they'd listened sometimes tosome of this
Kent Halliburton (00:51:15):
<laugh>. I'm sure it soundslike a, uh, a, a constant, uh, battle there on your hands, Tom. And, you know,I throw out one, one, not even a suggestion, but just one thing I'm noticing inthe marketplace right now, um, you know, is we're we're growing, we're raisingcapital, and some of the investors that we're speaking with are reallyattracted to Bitcoin mining because of the E s G standpoint. But you know, bythe time we're done, uh, working with them to shape a presentation, the way thepresentation actually looks and the way they like it is where it's talking allabout, um, data centers computation and the ability to mitigate methane andoffset and otherwise un upsettable, uh, energy source, uh, in these remotelocations. And there's no mention of Bitcoin even. And so I'm, I'm, I'mwondering if you couldn't take that idea and perhaps apply it in some of yourconversations and just talk about these data centers and, and at the very end,uh, that are, you know, these data centers that are mitigating methane, andthen at the very end, uh, when they ask, what is this technology say? Oh yeah,just Bitcoin mining. So maybe it's just, I, I feel like people have like a, uh,knee-jerk reaction to just the word Bitcoin at this point. Kinda like, uh,there is knee-jerk reaction to other words right now that are, are politicalhot topics.
Tom Mapes (00:52:45):
No, and, and I appreciate that. Any,any input and, and if anyone you know, on the line here ever has any, anyinput, we are always, uh, all ears over the digital chamber. Feel free to reachout any time and getting involved and engaged with, with what we're doing there.And, and, and, and yes, oftentimes, um, when we're, when we're speaking withthem, we, we boil it down over simplify and, and say, you know, at the end ofthe day, you're not going after the Google Data Centers of the world, theAmazon data centers of the world. You're single, you know, they're data centersat the end of the day. And frankly, the, our data centers are particularly withthe demand response aspect, are, are much more, um, you know, able to beingrained with the gr or incorporated with the grid and, and, and kind ofobviously oversimplifying it, but kind of work as a one way battery.
You know, as we turn down in a coupleminutes, the Amazons of the world, the Googles of the world, cannot turn downin a moment's notice because, you know, as, as we relate to members ofCongress, it's, they have, you know, maybe a hospital's files or, or are backedup on there, or, you know, their businesses are running on there, they justcan't turn off at peak times the way we can. So there's, there's really that,that, um, you know, incorporation of, of opportunity with, with our industryand, and the grid and the demand response aspect. So I appreciate your input onthat. And, and like I said, if anyone ever has any thoughts on how to go aboutthis, you know, we're always, we're always all ears. We're always looking towork together with as many, many folks in the industry as possible.
Logan Chipkin (00:54:22):
Uh, just a reminder, because I seesome new people in the audience, we only have seven minutes left, so if youhave a question, uh, for Tom or for anyone else, feel free to ask. Um, in themeantime, Tom, so I wonder to be maybe a little cynical about thesepoliticians. Do you think what ends up persuading politicians to be on ourside, as it were, is just that their constituents become so pro Bitcoin forwhatever reason? They don't necessarily have to be, you know, in aggressivemaximalist. Like some of us might be, I'm not speaking for Will and Kent, ofcourse, just for myself, but mainly that they just, you know, their dollars,uh, melt away like butter in the hot spot, and they start owning Bitcoin andthey like it, and maybe they're mining Bitcoin or whatever, that they wantBitcoin to stick around. And then so they tell their politicians, Hey, we wantBitcoin to be around. If you work against Bitcoin, you'll be very unpopular.You'll lose your next election. Do you think in, at the end of the day, that isthe most effective path towards political, um, acceptance of Bitcoin?
Tom Mapes (00:55:22):
I think it's one of the best, um,having, um, me, you know, members of Congress, their d they are there torepresent their district. So the more they hear from, you know, and, and thisis kind of a call to action for all, for all of you all on here, you know,reach out to your, your congressmen and women, reach out to your senators, evenyour local, your local, um, um, uh, politicians, things like that. Because themore and more they hear about it, the more and more it's gonna resonate withthem. They're gonna say, oh, you know, they, if they don't hear about it,they're, what do they care, you know, about coming to fight for it, uh, here inDC or at a state level or local level or anything like that. It's reaching outto them. It's, it's telling the personalized stories.
Hey, Congressman, so-and-so, I, um,got into, you know, digital assets, got into Bitcoin. I'm, I'm now, you know,we're, I, I have a co I have a business in your, in your district now. Um, youknow, I'm opening a mind in your district that's jobs in your district that'stax revenue in your district. Um, you know, which ultimately trickles down tomore, more, uh, you know, more money to spend on the local restaurants in yourdistrict. The, you know, it kind of goes around, the more you can build uppersonalized stories in their district, go a long way to really have them, um,you know, be able to understand the industry, see that they're member, youknow, people in their constituents are actively using it and, and are, arepersonally invested in, in the industry. So I, yes, I, I, I think that's amongothers one of the best uh, ways to really get that needle moving because, um,you know, coming in, I, I see, I'm, I'm sure, as all of yous see a lot of folkson Twitter talking a lot about how they're all of a sudden gonna come outtaleft field and throw money on at this space and things like that.
And it only goes so far. It's reallythose personal, um, examples within their districts that they are gonna comefight for the industry because their constituents have, uh, uh, vested interestin it.
Logan Chipkin (00:57:24):
Yeah. Uh, this is why I'm alwaysoptimistic about the future of Bitcoin. Um, well, not only in the developingworld, as we've seen from the conference last week in Africa, I think it waslast week, might have been two weeks ago. Well, they obviously see the value ofBitcoin simply because they need it far more than we do, uh, in the West. Buteven in the West, I think, um, you know, people criticize the Bitcoin communityfor being toxic, right? But what they see as toxic, I see as this utter reallyadmirable tenacity. You know, we work our tails off, uh, in the Bitcoinecosystem, if I may say so. Um, and with that comes more and more goods andservices that are related to Bitcoin that make it easier for, let's say, nonideologically possessed bitcoiners. I'm only speaking for myself, of course,uh, to get into Bitcoin. And so in other words, we are Bitcoin's destiny is inall of our hands, and there's not a lot of laziness in this community. And soI, I'm very optimistic that eventually we will kind of turn the constituentsover to our side, whether they are for Bitcoin, kind of for broaderphilosophical reasons, or just for their own self-interest. It's fine eitherway. And then eventually the politicians will have to follow suit, especiallyin a democracy where they worry about being reelected.
Tom Mapes (00:58:41):
I know, absolutely. And, and it'sthat consistent, you know, it's a consistent messaging. It's a consistent, and,and, you know, it's easy to get on social media to blast these members and, youknow, slap up a, you know, I hate X, Y, Z, you're terrible, but I disagree withyou. But it, it's going with level-headed conversation, showing them the facts,showing them the data. Uh, that's what we always talk about, particularly inthe mining front, is we have the data, we have the stories, it's getting inthere and, and, and, and showing these, these case uses that this, this isreally important for energy development, energy transition, um, you know,ultimately the electrification of the grid, if we're gonna head in that, thatdirection. Things like that. So, so it, it's, it's, it's, it's telling allthese stories, you know, obviously that's, that's mining focus, but, butthere's, there's so many different avenues to, to, uh, to tell that narrative
Logan Chipkin (00:59:38):
For sure. And, uh, Tom, as we comenear the end of the hour, I'm just wondering, as we go into 2023, uh, what areyou working on in the kind of Bitcoin to politician pipeline, uh, that is mostexciting to you and that listeners should know about?
Tom Mapes (00:59:53):
Uh, we've, we've been working onsome, uh, some positive, uh, offensive legislation in support of the industry.Uh, we're working on, we're working with some members, hopefully gonna get thatintroduced next year, hopefully, we'll, we'll, uh, be able to have some goodnews on that. Uh, next Congress, we're still working on finding some membersto, to build a bit of a coalition, but, but, um, you know, we, we oftentimesare caught playing defense in, in, in this, um, in this area. And, and I thinkthe industry, particularly on the mining front, there's an opportunity toreally play offensive here and get some of those, uh, members on the floorspeaking about the benefits, um, the benefits of the industry, the realopportunities we have here. Um, continuing those education pieces, as Imentioned, we're gonna, we're gonna be up in New York, uh, leading a, leading aa, an education day up there, and then o o obviously around the hill. Um, youknow, getting members down to the lo our members locations, you know, is, istop priority. Things like that. Really getting them to, uh, to see how thisindustry, um, you know, to see the utility of this industry firsthand, I thinkwill go a long way.
Logan Chipkin (01:01:06):
2023, the year we go on offense. Ilike it. Um, and listen, Tom, if you ever, uh, you, you have our information,if you ever need to talk to, you know, people working in the bitcoin miningspace in particular, we're more than happy to help in any way we can. Um, withthat, Tom, I really want to thank you for your time. Thanks to everyone whocame to listen. Thank you Will and Kent for, uh, joining as well. Uh, next weekwe have a friend of SAS Mining, Brian Dement, author of Bitcoin Evangelism.Very excited to pick his brain about a number of things. Um, and so with that,I hope everyone has a great rest of your day. I know the holidays are comingup. Um, we'll be having our Twitter spaces next week, same time as always. Uh,Thursday at 3:30 PM Eastern. If I don't talk to you before then, I hopeeveryone has a great holiday season. Take care everyone. Thanks.
Tom Mapes (01:01:53):
Logan Chipkin (01:01:54):
Speaker 5 (01:01:55):
Yeah, thanks, Logan.
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