Twittter Spaces Transcript: Bitcoin Evangelism with Brian De Mint

Synopsis: ‍

Entrepreneur and author Brian De Mint joins Will Szamosszegi and Kent Halliburton to discuss themes in his book, Bitcoin Evangelism.

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Link to Audio:

https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1ypJddMpBbrJW?s=20

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Transcript:

Logan Chipkin (00:00:20):

Hey, how's everyone doing today? Thumbsup, getting ready for the holidays. Chilling out.

Brian De Mint (00:00:49):

Hello. How's everybody doing?

Logan Chipkin (00:00:52):

Hey, Brian. Doing well. How are you?

Brian De Mint (00:00:56):

I'm well. Um, <laugh>, I, uh, Ihave a, I'm a bit under the weather. I have a little bit of a fever, and I'mpretty, uh, pretty nasally. But, um, yeah, so forgive me if <laugh>, if Isound a little loopy today. Um, it should make for, no, it should make for afun show, though.

Logan Chipkin (00:01:11):

Okay. Well, that's good. Uh, sorry tohear about that. Um, yeah, we'll give, uh, we'll give Kent and Will a minute,um, while people are shuffling in, but, uh, yeah, I hope you're rec, I hopeyou're recovered by Christmas. Uh, I know, I assume you celebrate that sort ofthing.

Brian De Mint (00:01:35):

My, me and my oldest daughter, we'reboth, uh, we're both a little sick and we're, and we're hosting Chris and Eveover at our house, and, uh, so we're like, we gotta get better <laugh>.We've got a couple days. Oh, man. We'll, yeah, I don't know. We, we, we, uh,we've been pumping ourselves with vitamins, so I think we'll be all right.

Logan Chipkin (00:01:52):

Okay, good.

Brian De Mint (00:01:53):

Is my connection coming in? Okay.Like all of a sudden it keeps telling me my connection's lost. Am I breakingup?

Logan Chipkin (00:02:00):

Uh, not at the moment.

Brian De Mint (00:02:01):

Okay. All right. Well, let me know ifit does and I can like, walk out front or something.

Logan Chipkin (00:02:05):

Sounds good. Um, by the way, beforeKenston Wills joined and before I kind of start the Twitter space, I have tosay, Brian, I have a slight bone to pick with you. Maybe we can take it up, uh,another time. Uh, the term bleeding hard Capitalism. I totally disagree withit. I respect it. You know, I read it in your book as a fellow libertarian. Um,I disagree with it, but we can get into that another time. I just wanted to letyou know.

Brian De Mint (00:02:30):

Oh, that sounds like fun. Yeah, weshould definitely, we should, we should cover that

Logan Chipkin (00:02:35):

<laugh>. Yeah, I think, um, Ithink we could have a lot of fun with that. I mean, you know, it'll overlapwith some of the stuff we're gonna talk about today. Perfect.

Brian De Mint (00:02:41):

Perfect.

Logan Chipkin (00:02:43):

Um, I see Will is here. Um, will,let's see. Invite to speak. Oh, here we go.

(00:02:58):

All right. Right. Uh, while Will'sconnecting, I'll go ahead and get us started. Hello everyone. This is the SaaSMining Weekly Twitter space, uh, SA at SaaS Mining. We make renewable retailbitcoin mining accessible, uh, to regular people. That is to retail customers.Um, if you go to our website, www.saasmining.com, uh, you can find out allabout what we do. Basically, you buy the renewable Bitcoin mining rigs throughus, and we manage the entire process for you so that you effectively earn, uh,Bitcoin as passive income. It goes right into your wallet, and we manage themachines for you so you don't have to worry about any of the complications. Um,with that, uh, I want to thank, uh, Brian Dint very much author of BitcoinEvangelism for joining us today. And before we have Brian introduce himself, wehave the CEO O of SA Mining. Uh, will Saag will, do you wanna introduceyourself?

Will Szamosszegi (00:03:48):

Yeah. Thank you, Logan. Uh, I've beenreally looking forward to this Twitter space that we got going on today. Uh,and thank you all for everyone tuning in. Uh, my, yeah, my name's WilliamsSani. I'm the c e and founder here at SA Mining. And, uh, I know Logan's got anawesome spaces teed up for us today, so I'm really looking forward to it. AndBrian, it's an absolute pleasure to meet you here on this Twitter space. I knowthat, uh, it's gonna be a fun, fun call we got going.

Brian De Mint (00:04:16):

Likewise. Well, I appreciate it, man.

Logan Chipkin (00:04:19):

And Brian, before we have youintroduce yourself, I know, uh, Kent, uh, SAS Mining, c o o, just joined Kent.Welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Kent Halliburton (00:04:27):

Absolutely. Uh, sorry for being acouple minutes late, but, um, really excited to talk with you today, Brian. SoI operate as the president, c o o, managing the internal operations here for SAMining. So if you ever have questions about what we're up to and doing with,uh, our customers mining rigs, uh, feel free to reach out. My dms are alwaysopen.

Logan Chipkin (00:04:50):

Thanks, Kent. And finally, uh, Brian,would you like to introduce yourself to the audience?

Brian De Mint (00:04:56):

Yeah, thank you guys for theopportunity. I, uh, I <laugh> I'm a listener. I mean, like, I, I loveyour Thursday spaces. I, I, I try to drop, drop in whenever I can. You guyshave had some really good guests and, uh, you know, I'm honored to be on ittoday. Um, but I'm also a fan of the company. Like I've, I've had the pleasureto talk to some of the people in the company and, uh, just really like themission of what you guys do. I'm sure, like I'm shilling you guys so much<laugh> on Twitter and Instagram that it probably sounds like I'm like apaid show. Um, but I'm not. It's just, I, I tell people all the time, um, I'mall about promoting things that, that are pushing for Bitcoin adoption orBitcoin decentralization, or just anything that benefits the network on anykind of level, whether it's a hash rate benefit, whether it's a marketingbenefit for Bitcoin.

(00:05:41):

Um, there's so many different rolesto play. Um, and so my role I believe in, in Bitcoin is just to, to be<laugh>. Like my, my book's called to be like an evangelist to just goout and, and talk to people. Um, and we can get more into that, you know, what,what it means. But, um, you know, I wrote a book, uh, about a year ago, like Istarted, I started writing it, um, last November. And so, you know, a littleover a year ago and, uh, you know, published it in, in June. And so the last,you know, six months or so have been just kind of the, the virtual book tour,getting, you know, getting around. I've actually done some of the physical booktour. I've gotten to travel around the country as well. And, uh, talked to differentpeople I've gotten to talk to, to farmers, uh, ranchers, uh, at the BeefInitiative in Georgia, which was like one totally different style.

(00:06:26):

Um, and then I got to go to PacificBitcoin and got just been able to do a bunch of different, like little meetups.I did a freedom rally in San Diego where it was just all, you know, people thatdon't know anything about Bitcoin, but it's, they're all about, um, you know,freedom and liberty. And so it's been so cool to see the different, um, justthe different people that Bitcoin appeals to. I mean, literally appeals toeverybody, whether they know it or not yet. So, um, I, you know, I get to walkin with, with quite a bit of confidence. Um, even if people are naysayersoriginally, I feel pretty confident in my role as an evangelist. So yeah,that's, that's what I get to do here.

Logan Chipkin (00:06:59):

That's fantastic, Brian. Uh, yeah,it's, uh, I agree Bitcoin appeals to almost everyone. Maybe not the controlfreaks amongst us, but that's okay. We'll work on 'em, you know, we'll get 'em.So, um, just to start off, Brian, uh, you mentioned your book and kind of whatyour mission is. Um, so how does the concept of Bitcoin evangelism differ fromthe concept of Bitcoin maximalism?

Brian De Mint (00:07:22):

Well, that I, that's a really goodquestion. Um, I would say probably the, the biggest pushback, um, and I, Iconsider myself a Bitcoin maximalist in the sense that I think Bitcoin's theonly version of sound money that we have in terms of, of like thecryptocurrency space. Um, but the, probably the biggest pushback I've gottenis, uh, from Bitcoin, like I, maybe they call it the toxic Mac Maxis inBitcoin. Um, they've, they've said, I've, I'm, I'm a bit too soft on alt coinsthroughout the book. And what I tell people all the time, um, is that, youknow, the book's called Bitcoin Evangelism. Well, everybody thinks ofevangelism. They think of Christian evangelism because I, I, I purposely tiedit into that because Christian Evangelism was one of the most, uh, successfulcampaigns of adoption in world history, right? There's Christianity in everycorner of the globe, and, um, I see Bitcoin evangelism in a similar way.

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So Christian evangelism, there's twotypes of people, right? There's the non-believer, like the atheist, and thenthere's the, the Pagan, somebody that believes in a different religion. And sothe Christian evangelist has to be prepared to talk to both of those people.The atheist, they might have, they might take an apologetics approach of whythe Bible's vi valid or, or, or why, you know, God is real, yada, yada, yada.The other one, if you're talking to a Pagan, somebody that believes in a higherpower, but they don't believe maybe in what you think is the truth, um, you takea different approach. And I see Bitcoin evangelism in the same way. And so ifyou take, I believe if you take a, a very toxic maxi approach to it, it, it canbe very difficult, um, for maybe not the no coiner, maybe the no coiner, youknow, they, they say, oh, yeah, that, that's great.

(00:09:00):

You're just talking about Bitcoin.That makes it easy for me. But the alt coiner, somebody that's been in theAltcoin space, um, which most Bitcoiners have dabbled in the Altcoin space atsome time. So, um, you know, I think that, you know, I certainly have, I workedas the chief marketing officer for an alt coin project for three years, um,several years ago. And, uh, and so I think that it's, you know, and people werenice to me. They helped me kind of understand, you know, the tenants aroundBitcoin, uh, uh, you know, in greater depth. And so I think I prefer to take asofter approach to winning the alt corners back into the Bitcoin fold, youknow, and using rational, uh, arguments of, you know, maybe, uh, you know,maybe Ethereum has some cool technology, maybe maybe card is, is trying to dosome interesting techniques. But just at the end of the day, they may not havethe decentralization that Bitcoin has. They may not have their immutabilitythat Bitcoin has. And so it's kind of like a gentle push back into the Bitcoin fold.Um, and again, if, if I'm talking to a no Coiner, it's gonna be a, a differentconversation. But I see the evangelism being that two-pronged approach, andthat's why I named the book that.

Logan Chipkin (00:10:09):

Yeah, fair enough. And you do kind ofgive a fair hearing to Altcoins and, and the blockchain technology moregenerally, um, you know, beyond Bitcoin applications. I, I, I watched yourconversation with Kent last night and how you were kind of getting it from bothsides. That was very amusing to me. Um, so having said that, now to kinda leaninto the maximalism, uh, a bit, if you're looking to Orange pill someone, um,which component of the Bitcoin network do you think is most important for thatperson to understand first? So when I say that, I mean, would you explain kindof the nature of the blockchain to having schedule, uh, the role of miningpublic first private keys? I mean, these all play a fun, a crucial role, ofcourse. But if you had to kind of pick one to start with, which one would youchoose?

Brian De Mint (00:10:53):

Well, I, I come from a salesbackground. Um, in my business we do, we did a lot of membership sales andthings like that, and we sold a bunch of different types of therapeuticservices in my business. And so somebody could be walking in for one of fivedifferent reasons at my, at my business. Um, and so if I just start pitchingwithout asking any questions, then I'm probably going to start pitchingsomething that doesn't really appeal to that person. So what I do is I try tofind out who I'm talking to. Like I mentioned earlier, I've been fortunate enoughto go to several different things in person to talk to people. So when I'mtalking to ranchers, uh, at the Beef Initiative, people that are coming under,you know, scrutiny from the fda, um, in terms of the way that they, they selltheir meats and stuff, um, these ranchers want a parallel money system thatcan't be messed with by the government that their bank accounts can't, can'tget shut down.

(00:11:44):

So if that's the case, if I'm talkingto a rancher, then, then that's probably the, the, the thing I'm gonna lead inwith. Um, same thing when I went to the, the freedom rally, um, and set up abooth there. Those people are ver the, the idea of liberty over your moneyappeals to those people. Um, the immutability that, you know, you, you, your,your transactions can't be changed, even though it's visible to everybody.Like, that's a pretty mind-blowing thought is that everybody can see theledger, but nobody can change it. And so, um, those things I think are veryappealing to the, to the average person. Um, now when I'm talking to my Boomerparents, um, I'm talking about because they, they like, uh, they were goldbugs. So I talk about scarcity with them. Um, scarcity is something that Ithink, um, in this day and age with, um, with, with inflation and, and, andthose types of things, I sit on the board of my church as well.

(00:12:36):

Our, um, I sit on the finance team ofmy church, and so, uh, I've actually been able to get the church to rewritetheir bylaws so that we can hold Bitcoin <laugh> on the church treasury.Um, because I, you know, I think that it's important that organizations, uh,are able to equip themselves to not have their money melt away. I mean, thinkabout it in a church setting. Um, if people give their money to a church to bestewards of that money to do good things around the world, and the church isholding that money in cash, that's melting away, you're kind of being a badsteward of that money, right? Somebody, somebody entrusted you with their moneyand you're gonna hold it for a year while you're, you know, building a missionor building a water well, or something like that. There's, there's this timewhere you hold that money, but if it's melting away at 8%, like that's, youknow, that's this, that can be a problem right there, there can be thisstewardship issue. So anyways, I think that different people, it appeals to,you know, you can appeal to, uh, an evangelistic approach in different ways.Um, hopefully that answers your question. Did, did that answer it, Logan?

Logan Chipkin (00:13:37):

Yeah, definitely. Basically, the wayI would reword what you said is you have to understand the problem situationsomeone finds themselves in, and then that's how you kind of have to tailoryour message, I think. Would that be a fair characterization?

Brian De Mint (00:13:51):

Yes, absolutely.

Logan Chipkin (00:13:53):

Okay. Okay. So you, um, you bring upthe church. Um, now I per, like, I'm very much into the history of religionsand how they intersect with other ideas. Um, and I know safety Dean has kind ofhinted at the overlap between, um, Bitcoin and Bitcoin adoption, let's say, andcertain Islamic, uh, practices and Islamic law. Um, I could be to, I'm probablytotally butchering this, so if, you know, if people here want to cancel me,that's fine, but it's something like, uh, interest rates are considered immoralaccording to Islamic law. Uh, but Seine basically argues, like on a Bitcoinstandard, interest rates would fall asymptotically towards zero. And so italigns with Islam. Anyway. I'm not even taking a position on this only to say,um, do you find yourself Brian kind of, uh, entering almost biblical argumentsor discussions with people and you're saying, well, you know, Bitcoin actuallyaligns with Christianity in such and such way.

Brian De Mint (00:14:46):

Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's asection in the book, well, I, I talk about it reference, uh, this kind of stuffa few times throughout the book. But the two things that I really hit withChristians or just kind of like people that have any kind of reverence for theBible, um, whether they're a Christian or they just believe that the Bible islike a, a nice historical book or whatever. I mentioned that the, uh, the onlytime that Jesus in his earthly form shows righteous anger is when there's animmoral financial system at the temple. Um, I don't know if people rememberthe, the story of the money changers in the temple, if they remember this fromlike their old Sunday school classes and stuff. Um, but the only time thatJesus gets pissed off is when, uh, these temple money changers are, um,basically giving unfair exchange rates.

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So, so pilgrims had to come from allover the world to pay their respects at the temple and do their sacrifices andthings like that. But you couldn't pay at the temple with pagan currency. Andeverybody's currency had a pagan emperor on it. So the only currency you couldpay with at the temple was the Jewish shekel. And so these money changers, theyknew that people couldn't basically go get their sins forgiven unless they paidin this Jewish shackle. And so they could charge exorbitant fees to trade yourpagan currency into the Jewish shackle. Jesus, Jesus didn't like that. Itliterally says he fashioned a whipped and like whipped these people to get themoutta the temple. Cause it was so, and this guy was all about peace and loveand, and you know, turning the other cheek and all these different things, butthere's cer certain things and, and the Old Testament, it says that there'scertain things that, that God detests, and it's immoral financial systemsbecause it's so insidious that it's, and it's so damaging to people.

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And so I appeal to the Christianethos and, and I, I'd say to any religious ethos, um, because yeah, if you careabout people, I mean religions broadly or they're, cuz they, they typicallycare about people and the, well, the wellbeing of people. If we care aboutpeople, we need to assess the way our money's wor our, our money works becauseit might be the broadest way that people are, are oppressed. Um, and then theother thing that I, I bring up at the end of the book, it's almost kind oftongue in cheek, but I get Christians asking me this all the time. They'relike, oh, I don't wanna adopt Bitcoin because it's the one world currency ofrevelation in like the, uh, the anti-Christ <laugh>. So I actually, myresponse to that's, uh, is, is is this, I say, you know what? There actually isa one world currency, and, uh, it's the US dollar, the US dollar is made theone world currency after the biggest war in the history of the world, whichjust coincides with the exact same time that Israel was reestablished as astate after 2000 years.

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Um, the Bible talks about Israelbeing reestablished as a state that happens at the end of this biggest war everthe same exact time that there's a one world currency and now this one worldcurrency we've seen in the pa in, in the past couple years, that currencysystems are being used to oppress people. Um, Bitcoin is actually the onlynon-governmental currency that we have any kind of, uh, that has like a, apractical use in the 21st century. Um, and isn't it interesting that the firstcountry to adopt it nationally was El Salvador, which literally translatedmeans the savior <laugh>. So if you're a Christian and you are worriedabout Bitcoin being the one world currency, I would actually say that it's theway to fight the one world currency. I don't necessarily believe that<laugh>, that the US dollar is the anti-Christ currency, but I'm justsaying that there's probably a better case for the US dollar being that andBitcoin being the solution than, uh, the other way around.

Kent Halliburton (00:18:18):

Brian, that's fascinating. Um, and Idon't, we actually dove into this topic a little bit on, uh, on the podcast wewere on. I had a blast talking with you, by the way. Um, but I'm, I'm thinkingabout it here and I'm wondering, just in general, you know, it sounds, itsounds to me like you've actually had quite a, a lot of success, uh, orangepeeling folks within, you know, your tribe, so to speak, and your backgroundin, in your religious, uh, or Christian, um, Christian roots there. I'mwondering in general, as a strategy to orange pill people, if you think thatthat is perhaps the best approach. I mean, there's, there's definitely a lotthat aligns with Christianity and, and Bitcoin as, as Logan was saying, Islamand, and Bitcoin as well. But in general, it seems to me like being able tospeak with passion to your, uh, your affinity groups is one of the beststrategies in general that we have to, uh, to bring in more people intoBitcoin. What do you think of that idea in general?

Brian De Mint (00:19:24):

Yeah, I mean, I think that we need toappeal to people's consciousness with Bitcoin. I think that for too long peoplehave appealed to people's, uh, greed with Bitcoin. And I don't think that, um,wanting to store and preserve your wealth is a bad thing. I actually think thatthere's a, a moral component to that as well. Um, but I think that crypto morebroadly has really, um, adopted this idea of the get rich quick scheme, andthen some of that trickles over to people's perception of Bitcoin. And so Ithink that it's really important to say, you know what, that's great. I actuallythink that you will build wealth. I think that there is a, a, a, a generationaltransformation or transfer of wealth that will be happening as millennials, um,and Gen Zers are set to inherit however many trillions of dollars from theboomers over the next couple, uh, you know, decades, um, that a lot of thatmoney is going to be going into Bitcoin.

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And so yes, there's a hugeopportunity, you know, in addition to whatever, uh, uh, adoption happens withBitcoin. Um, but yeah, there's, there is a huge opportunity for wealthbuilding, but it's really, to me and to people that have a, a, a religiousethos, I think that it's, it's, it's more than that. It's a, um, it's a chanceto cross party lines, right? I think in our, in our conversation, Kent, you hadmentioned something about the Orange party, and I, I, I love that idea that,um, you know, red party blue party, like, I think people are getting prettysick of political parties and factions, and we're looking for things thatpeople can agree on. I think sound money is something that everybody can agreeon. Like, I, my friends are just super liberal. Uh, like when I talk to 'emabout Bitcoin, they, they usually come from a position of, um, oh, it's bad forthe environment once we can get by past that.

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And by the way, thank you sabsmining, because I usually reference your company. And now the fact that, uh,I'm set up to mine <laugh> with renewable, with renewable energy, it justtotally trumps their argument. Um, so it's like the best ammunition, like thepaying for the miners through you guys was like the best ammunition ever, asidefrom being able to stack that. Um, but, um, we get to, once we get past that,let that initial bit of fud, I'm able to appeal to their sense of justice. I'mable to appeal to like a lot of the language I used through Bitcoin evangelism.Sounds like somebody from a, a Black Lives Matter rally might say. I talk aboutsystemic oppression. I think a lot of bitcoiners acknowledge systemicoppression, but it's not necessarily the way that the, the mainstream mediatalks about systemic oppression. I think it's systemic oppression from atop-down financial system where there's a small group of people that get tocontrol the money system, and then there, then there's the rest of us that getthe scraps.

(00:22:06):

And so Bitcoin flips that on itshead, and it's just a universal, universal message of love. So that appeals to,um, honestly, everybody, I, I don't know a lot of, you know, I, I don't thinkit's just religious people. I think there's lots of my atheist friends as wellthat are, that are like nice moral people and, uh, they like to think ofthemselves as altruistic. And I think it appeals to their senses of altruismand, and fairness and justice and those types of things too. Um, so yeah, Imean, I, I think that would be my answer to that.

Will Szamosszegi (00:22:35):

Yeah, Brian, uh, hearing you talkabout all these things, I can, I can just feel the passion that you have about,uh, about what it is that you're working on, and I think that, that yourpassion really shines through in the book. So for everyone out there who's,who's listening to this conversation, definitely go check out Brian's book. Youwill be happy that you did. Um, one particular line that stood out to me in thebook was something that I had never really verbalized before, but seeing it inwriting just really, um, I would say opened my eyes in a big way. And it waswhen you compared the Bitcoin White paper to the Declaration of Independenceand a Constitution. And I, I'd love to just hear your thoughts on that after,um, not only coming up with that idea and that analogy, but giving you thechance to flush out what you meant by that.

Brian De Mint (00:23:23):

Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, well, Imean, trying to, as you can tell, I'm long-winded with all these answers, soI'll try not to like wax poetic for 10 minutes on it. But, um, I think it'simportant that the, that the fundamentals of Bitcoin, that the constitution ofBitcoin remains intact, and I think that's the main difference. You'll hearguys like Mark Moss talk about this a lot. Um, the difference, one of the maindifferences between Bitcoin and crypto is that, um, crypto deals a lot ingovernance. You'll hear crypto talking a lot about governance, whereas inBitcoin, it, it, we really talk about this immutable set of rules. Um, youdon't have to use Bitcoin, but the rules are all described and displayed aheadof time. So if you want to interact with Bitcoin, there's, there's transparency,and you don't have to worry about the rules changing.

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I mean, if you're gonna store yourwealth in it, um, a lot of people, they, they don't do spaces like you and Ievery day, right? They, they're not, they're not doing this every week. They'renot living in it. So they might, I, I know plenty of people that have boughtBitcoin, put it in cold storage and haven't thought about it for five years.They don't want to try and keep up on the most recent governance of Bitcoin.And that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is that those rules really don't change.I mean, if you read the block Size Wars, um, a really short book, but it coversthe block size wars from what, like 20 16, 20 17, it's very difficult tochange, uh, the consensus of Bitcoin. And that's a great thing. It's, you don'twant it to be impossible, because if, if everybody wanted to change something,then, then we could.

(00:24:53):

Um, but it is very difficult.Everybody talks about a 51% attack. You really need like a 90% consensus withBitcoin to change something. Um, and so that's just the same way theConstitution is. We have a set of rules in the United States that people, um,it preserves their freedom, and they don't have to constantly like check andsee, you know, if their, if their first amendment, if their freedom of speechisn't, is intact. Now, you could argue that <laugh>, um, that, that thepeople are abusing that. But anyways, that's neither here nor there. We knowthat the Constitution isn't changing very frequently. Um, and it's only whenthere's a big, uh, seismic shift in culture that we decide that we're gonnamake, make an amendment or change something. Um, it's been very few times thatsomething's actually changed in the last, you know, two, two and a halfcenturies in the Constitution.

(00:25:42):

Um, same thing with Bitcoin. I mean,it's backwards compatible for the last 14 years. You can depend on what's onthe Bitcoin blockchain. You can depend on what's on the Bitcoin ledger. I thinkEthereum is a very interesting project, but if you want to put money in it, ifyou want to buy Ethereum, that can be dangerous because Ethereums, it, it, it'salready shown that it has changed its blockchain. Like when it had the Dowhack, it just reverted back. There's a lot of centralization, and it's, andit's because it's based in governance. And a lot of, you know, if your, if yourblockchain is based on governance, it means whoever holds the most tokens getsto vote. To me, that's just kind of like, um, it's rehashing the old system.And so I, I think that I, I like the fact that Ethereum exists because it'smoving fast and breaking things, and the things that Ethereum is like aresearch and development line, in my opinion.

(00:26:38):

Um, and so the things that work onEthereum, whether it's Defi or any kind of tokens or whatever it happens to be,that stuff's gonna come over to Bitcoin. And so I think that's the, that's thebenefit of Ethereum or these other blockchains. But as far as like, if youwanna store wealth on that, I think that that could be a bit risky. It could bea bit dangerous, um, because if you buy some Ethereum and you put it in coldstorage for five years, you're not guaranteed that the algorithm's gonna be thesame. In fact, if you put Ethereum in cold storage just a year ago, thingswould've completely changed on Ethereum, for example, um, you, you would'vemoved from proof of work to proof of stake. And so, um, I love the fact thatBitcoin is very rigid. It's a, it's a constitution in the se in in the factthat it's a immutable set of rules, and it's a declaration of independence.

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I mean, I touched on that a littlebit, but it's this idea, it's this concept. It's a, it's a, a shot across thebow. It's a, it's a, um, a declaration to the world that you can be independentover your money, sovereign over your money for the first time ever. Um, we hadthat with gold to some degree, um, but the physical limitations and, and goldwas kind of too expensive for most people to interact with in any kind of, uh,big level at any kind of commerce level. So it didn't really, um, have the, theappeal to the every man like Bitcoin can. And so I think it's a declaration ofindependence in that sense that it appeals to the every man. It appeals to theelite. I mean, that's the thing. The elites can adopt this system too. Goahead. I hope they do, but they have to play by the same rules as the rest ofus. And that's, that's great. I think that, uh, that that's a fair system. Ithink everybody should be able to be included in it.

Logan Chipkin (00:28:20):

Yeah, very well said, Brian. I, and,uh, it's funny you were saying, uh, oh, people might disagree about theConstitution preserving our freedoms and stuff. I would be, uh, one of thosepeople I think who would, uh, respectfully disagree. I very much agree with,uh, the great Lisander Spooner who said, uh, the Constitution either permittedthe massive growth of government we, we've seen, or it's been powerless to stopit. Either way it's unfit for a free people. So in that sense, I do like thatyou analogize Bitcoin to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.But I would say Bitcoin is, uh, even better than both. Um, I don't know ifyou're familiar, um, I forget the name of the historian, but he argued that theAmerican Revolution was really a conservative revolution in the sense that itwas a revolution in the sense of breaking away from England and, and monarchyand all that.

(00:29:05):

But it was also conservative in, inthe system that they set up, to your point. And I think in a way, also, to yourpoint about Bitcoin being very robust and difficult to change, Bitcoin is alsoa kind of conservative revolution. I mean, it certainly revolutionizeshumanity's relationship with money, um, but it does, so not in a kind of throweverything at the wall and see what sticks kind of way, which maybe you couldargue the whole sea of alt coins is, um, to, to put it in slightly moreimpolite terms than you are Brian. Um, but it's also very conservative in thesense that, uh, it's difficult to change.

Brian De Mint (00:29:37):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I,yeah, I would say it's conservative in that sense. And you brought upsomething, Logan, that, that I just kind of, uh, I, I didn't even say thatdidn't even gloss over, but why I would, why I would argue that Bitcoin, likeyou said, is actually better than the Constitution or better than a Declarationof Independence is because unfortunately, those documents are contingent onhuman execution. Like the documents can save whatever they want, but humans arefallible. Well, when we're dealing in code and rigid systems that if A equals Band B equals C, then we have no option to operate. Like, imagine if theConstitution was so perfect and it was like we all had microchips on our head,this sounds creepy, this doesn't sound conservative at all. But if we had toobey the Constitution, then the Constitution would be like very, uh, you know,it, it would be preserved and people wouldn't be able to create, you know,these, these, these, uh, these top-down systems and things like that. Now, wedon't want that, but with our money system, that that's a great thing thatpeople cannot act out of accordance with what the Constitution says. Um, soyes, thank you for, for, for pointing that out because yes, the problem withthe constitution is human fallibility.

Logan Chipkin (00:30:45):

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, well said. Sonow, uh, switching gears a little bit. Obviously we're at the end of the year,we're in the holiday season, so I thought we could take some time before we goto listener questions to kind of reflect on the year, think about what ourfavorite, um, events or narrative shifts were from the year in the Bitcoinspace. Uh, so Brian, I wonder, do you have any kind of favorite eithertechnological breakthroughs or cultural moments or narrative shifts that you'veseen in the year of 2022? I mean, obviously in terms of like themacroeconomics, we've seen a very big bear market. So, um, keeping that inmind, what do you think, what are your favorite moments?

Brian De Mint (00:31:22):

Well, as far as, uh, uh, moments,well, let, let me just say this part. I've been through three or four bearmarkets now, and, uh, this is the first bear market where I haven't seenmainstream news, or at least the, the going line on the mainstream news sayinganything about Bitcoin going to zero. It seems like the consensus amongst themainstream media is that, okay, well, bitcoin's down, but it's going back now.There's always gonna be the random person, the Peter Schiffs of the world thatare incentivized to <laugh>, you know, sell gold and, and, uh, you know,put down, put down Bitcoin, and they're gonna say how it's gonna go to zero. Bythe way, there's a great series of tweets, uh, from Peter Schiff saying thesame thing at $3,000 versus $16,000 versus $300. Um, but the, the generalconsensus seems to be even amongst the naysayers, okay, Bitcoin's here to sayit's, you know, 75% down, 80% down, yada, yada, yada, when's it going back up?

(00:32:15):

And people are starting to becomeaware of having cycles and that, um, I think this having cycle, you usually seelike a, a little bit of a pre-run of the having cycle, but then it's, it's theyear after the six months after the having cycle. I think we're gonna see ahuge run up before the next having cycle, because the game theory aroundBitcoin's not going to zero. Having cycles are what make it happen. Um, but asfar as like moments in the year, I think the greatest things to happen, um, itsucks that people lost their money. I have, I have friends that had money onCelsius and, uh, you know, Bitcoin on Celsius and, and, and probably are gonnalose that or maybe get 10 cents on the dollar in, in bankruptcy or whatever. Ithink those flush outs are really good. And it, it's, it's, it's the fact that,um, they're not getting these, these companies aren't getting bailed out isprobably a good thing, um, because it's going to be, uh, kind of a free market,uh, example of the best marketing ever for self custody.

(00:33:15):

And so I think that, you know, I, Icame in Bitcoin right after Mountain GOs, like that was, um, you know, I was,that was news in the headlines, right? When I was like buying my first Bitcoinsand stuff. Um, and so I got the early this early glimpse of like, yeah, wow,your, your money could be gone in a second. Um, but I think there was plenty ofpeople that came in, you know, maybe at the 2017 bull market, um, that didn'tsee a lot of major collapses. They saw ICOs collapse, they saw other thingscollapse, and so they, they saw maybe protocols collapse, and they're like,okay, well there can be rug pools and things like that, but certainly Celsiusor certainly Block Fire, some of these institutions that are being advertisedon TV shows and Super Bowl ads and things like that, there's no way those kindof companies could, could ever fall.

(00:34:02):

Um, I don't, I don't take pleasure inthat. Um, I think it's really sad that people lost their money, but, and whenI'm thinking about the long term health of Bitcoin, I think that that probablywe're gonna look back on that and be pretty grateful for that. Um, so it's oneof the things that I don't see as like a great thing now. Um, but in the longterm, I do think that it's gonna be a really healthy phase that we've gonethrough. Um, and then the other thing, I think that people are starting to wakeup to mining. I think that people are starting to wake up to mining Bitcoinmining being the solution for energy grid problems. Um, like I said, as Italked to more and more people, my, my, my liberal friends are actually, I'vehad some of them come up to me and tell me like how they heard that Bitcoinmines at a, at a higher renewable rate than, than most Indu industries andthings like that.

(00:34:50):

And so, um, I think that that, thatnarrative's changing, and I think people are getting excited about Bitcoinbeing a solution to energy problems, as, you know, in addition to all the otherthings that Bitcoin solves. Um, but, uh, so, you know, for, for SaaS mining tobe kind of positioned in the place that they're in, I think that that's, youguys <laugh> your business, I in this next, in this next bull market isgonna be bananas. So I'm, I'm happy for you guys in advance. Um, and then the,the third thing, uh, that I would say is I'm starting to see, cause I've done,I've been doing more in-person Bitcoin meetups. I'm seeing Orange Pill App<laugh> is, uh, is in the, is in the building here. Um, I, I get to workwith Orange Pill app, and that's been such a rewarding thing to do in-personBitcoin meetups.

(00:35:37):

Um, because it's one thing to connectwith people in spaces, it's one thing to connect with people just, you know, indms and stuff like that, but meeting with other Bitcoiners face-to-face is sorewarding, and it makes it feel like, wow, like we actually have thisconnection. Most people are starving for contacts, like most people'sgirlfriends are wise or just so annoyed <laugh> that, um, that, that,that, uh, that they just won't stop talking about Bitcoin. And so I know, youknow, my wife, thankfully, she's, she's read my book, she allows me to talkabout Bitcoin as much as I want. Um, but I still have a, you know, have adesire to meet other people in my area that are like Bitcoiners. And so, um,there's things like orange pill app. There are things that, there's conferencesall the time. There's more opportunities for people to meet other Bitcoiners.

(00:36:19):

And, uh, I think that that sociallayer of Bitcoin is being formed, uh, as we speak. And that's, I think, gonnabe the thing that really propels Bitcoin forward, because when we develop thesocial layer of Bitcoin, then that's when you're gonna get more merchantadoption, right? You're, that's when you're gonna get more people using Bitcoinin daily transactions. Like I personally use Bitcoin every single day. I use itin marketing for my businesses. I use it, I buy my meat in Bitcoin, I buy<laugh>, I buy, uh, I I buy clothes and things like that in Bitcoin. So,um, that to me, these are some, I mean, those are probably the three biggestthings that, uh, that I'm excited about as far as narratives and stuff rightnow.

Kent Halliburton (00:37:00):

Well, Brian, that's extremelyvalidating. Thank you for the kind words about SaaS mining. And, uh, I don'tknow that I've shared this with you, but one of the, the side benefits that wesee from getting folks into Bitcoin mining making that easy is that we canactually help build that social layer as well, because nobody is more vestedthan a minor in the state of the Bitcoin network. So the more people we have,the more, uh, the more hopefully that orange pow, uh, party grows, and, uh, wecan break this log jam of two silly parties controlling everything in the us.But one of the things that I am curious about is, you know, you talked abouthow sort of Bitcoin creating this, this, uh, this situation of consequence forpeople, um, you know, where not your keys, not your coin really starts to getdriven home to people.

(00:37:54):

I'm curious to know, you know, it's,it's a painful lesson and it's not something that I'm excited about or like tosee, but I agree with you that it is going to drive people to, to understand itand, and to take, you know, personal, uh, responsibility. I mean, we're seeingit all the Bitcoin coming off of the exchanges, right? A as people takepersonal ownership, I am curious to know from your standpoint, you know, do youthink we, you know, you've been in this since the Mount GOs era and, and MountGOs was the first blow up. Like, how many more cycles do we have to go throughof people getting whacked over the head before, before we can lead peopledirectly to private key management and skip the, the Ruger roll, uh, withpeople getting sucked into the alt coins and, and exchanges, uh, and insteadjust learn how to, how to hold their keys to begin with?

Brian De Mint (00:38:47):

Yeah, I think it's a great question.I think Ftx being this, uh, this very visible, um, exchange that people, it, itgot so mainstream. I mean, in, in such a short order of time, was that, wasthat as crazy to everybody else as it was to me? I mean, I remember one dayhearing about ftx doing a, uh, you know, a stadium sponsorship and all thesedifferent sponsorships. I remember thinking, where did this company come from?Like, I, like, I've been in this space for a long time, and all of a suddenthey're like the number two exchange out there. And this guy, Sam Bankmanfried, like, I don't know, he just, it just a wild character. I think they'reso visible, they got so much visibility that that's the best thing that couldhave happened. Um, it was mainstream news. There's all this, uh, you know, talkof government collusion with it and all that, that sort of thing.

(00:39:34):

People realize that the, the dirtaround that element of the business. And I don't think it reflects poorly onBitcoin. I think that the Bitcoin community, the people that go on the Foxbusiness shows and stuff like that from the Bitcoin community have done a greatjob of, um, you know, fighting that, that narrative battle and stuff like thatsaying, Hey, there's, there's a difference between Bitcoin and what's going onwith these exchanges. And so I think that, that we've been winning on thatfront. Um, and I think that this is probably gonna be the last big, big crashof, um, maybe not Bitcoin price, but of, of people getting burned byinstitutions like this. I think this is big enough. I think this is sizableenough cuz it's multiple institutions. I know multiple people. I don't, Ididn't know anybody that got burned in Mountain Dock.

(00:40:19):

I don't know anybody that got burnedby Polo in 2018 or, you know, those small exchanges. But I know a lot ofpeople, um, that that lost money on ftx or they, they lost money in Celsius andthings like that. And so I think it was widespread enough that this is gonna bepainful enough to enough people that, uh, the next generation is going to be alittle bit wiser for it. Now, my prediction though is if there is another,another like ICO craze or another exchange craze or another Defi craze, youknow, defi summer craze, um, not that, not that defi and, and, you know, thesethings are gonna, are are bad technologies. I think it's very interestingtechnology, but I think that, um, DAOs might be the, uh, the craze of the nextwave. And I would say specifically for the reason that people are gonna say,and the crypto community are gonna say, look at the problem was thesecentralized exchanges look at the problem where these centralized entities, soDAOs are the solution to that.

(00:41:17):

Um, well if a, if your DAO is builton, um, Bitcoin, I, I think that there's, there's like a nice foundation tothat, but I think a lot of these DAOs are going to be built on small chainsthat are very vulnerable and very centralized and stuff. So I actually couldsee these two narratives playing together and, uh, that being the consequenceof it not being the next kind of major, um, I c o bust type thing that happens.And so if, if something does happen, I think it will be a Dow problem. Um, and Ihope, I hope I'm wrong on that and I hope that that doesn't come to fruition.But I, I could see that being the outcome of this,

Logan Chipkin (00:41:55):

You know, you mentioned FTX and howno one saw it coming and all of that for my first point to that is, um, yousaid, um, several minutes ago, Brian, that, um, I think you said that it, it'sbasically good that there, I hopefully there's no government bailout. Um, and Iagree with you because basically that's the free market working in action. Andyou're already seeing, and we've talked about this at SAS Mining, you'rebasically seeing the, uh, market correction amongst the platforms. Theexchanges that are surviving are kind of, um, starting to value more and moretransparency, having reserves on file. Um, I forget which company recently cameout and said, Hey, we're not even holding Ethereum anymore. So you're seeing acultural improvement, which is something you didn't see, uh, almost perfectlypoetically after the oh eight crash, because of course, the governments didbail out the banks and so they weren't able to error.

(00:42:40):

Correct. So that's the first thing tonote. In other words, once again, b basically Bitcoin wins and the bitcoinecosystem on top of Bitcoin wins. The second thing is when you bring up ftx, Ihave to say, um, I'm full on conspiratorial when it comes to this guy, SamBankman Fried. I mean, when the whole thing happened, uh, first of all, he'sgiving money to all these politicians. Uh, I, I watched this weird video thatsomeone, some company produced, and like the narrator's telling me, this guy'ssuch a genius. He's an effective altruist. Every dollar that he makes, he wantsto give to, uh, I don't know, vegan cows in India to make sure they continue tosurvive. He's such a good person. None of it made any sense. Every time heopened his mouth, he didn't say anything impressive. And look, okay, I get it,you're a billionaire.

(00:43:23):

You dress like a schlub, but it'slike, it's not cute. It, the whole thing is very bizarre. I don't trust it. Ihope to, to, you know, whatever God you wanna pray to that he doesn't Epsteinhimself, you know, uh, Elon Musk don't ban me from Twitter, but something isnot adding up. And I think it goes deep. And frankly, even after it all wentdown, just the way the corporate press or I guess what people would call themainstream media is covering him is completely bizarre. Um, if he wasn't in thein bed with, uh, our political overlords and, and their related classes, theywould cover him completely differently. They're basically like, oh, well he hadthe best of intentions, uh, but you know, what are you gonna do? It's like,what are you gonna do? This guy ruined the lives. So anyway, I'll get off mysoapbox now.

(00:44:04):

Um, now let me, uh, reset the room alittle bit after, and I'm a little hot now. I'm sweating. It's December, but,uh, okay. So if you're in the audience and you have any questions or commentsfor either Brian or Will or Ken or myself, uh, feel free to, uh, raise your hand.We're happy to bring you on stage. Uh, we have about 18 minutes left and I justwanna give everyone a friendly reminder that SaaS mining's next, uh, facility,which is hydro powered, is almost at capacity. Uh, but we're bypassing the waitlist for the holiday holiday season. So you can go to our website and purchaserigs directly, so that's www.sas mining.com. The facility will be energized inJanuary, so time's running out. So you want to get in, get in on this now. Andas we've been talking about with Brian, you know, bear markets really are thetime to start buying Bitcoin and mining your own Bitcoin because you don'twanna wait, uh, for the next time Bitcoin, uh, ripped because by then miningwill be much more expensive and you'll get crowded out. Um, so with all that,if anyone has any questions, feel free to raise your hand.

(00:45:04):

Um, and if not, Brian, I have aquestion. It's a bit, um, it's not direct, it's more to do with econ thanBitcoin, but, um, in your book you talk about how economics is mostly, uh,theoretical rather than a scientific field. And, uh, I think it's veryimportant for Bitcoiners to understand economics, especially monetaryeconomics, uh, obviously. So I just wonder what do you mean by that exactly?

Brian De Mint (00:45:29):

Um, so I that's a, yeah, it's apretty broad statement, but, um, I think the people get the impression thatbecause economics deals a lot with numbers that we have exact, uh, algorithmsfor how supply and demand works. Um, there's so much human variable when itcomes to economics that just because we're dealing in dollars and cents doesn'tmean that we fully understand it. Um, I actually think this is gonna be one ofthe big positive, not like, not like, oh, I want cbdc, but I think this isgonna be one of the big positive narratives for cbdc in the, in the, uh, in theeconomy circle in the economists circles, like the academic economists, I thinkthey're gonna say, CBDC will give us the ability to track and view, uh,transactions in a way that helps us understand economics better than everbefore. Um, because there's not a very good, um, a lot of transparency in ourmoney. Um, it's hard for economics to be mathematically exact now. Um, youknow, yes, there's, there's certain, there's certain components of economicsthat, um, that are mathematically based, right? But I, I guess I'm, I'mreferring more to the supply and demand elements of market forces.

Logan Chipkin (00:46:47):

Yeah, I, I agree. Um, and you know,this sounds like it's abstract, but it actually matters because basically, andSafa Dean writes very well about this, is that these economists basically,okay, they're funded by the government, basically. They're fiat economist, that'sfine. I mean, effectively that's an insult, so fair enough. But the thing thatthey do is they have their conclusion and then they can just play with numbersand statistics, and then either they intimidate people with a bunch of fancygraphs and numbers and big words so that people feel stupid even trying tochallenge them, or they just paint whatever picture they want. So, to take,like, to take an easy example, um, uh, Brian, you might disagree, but like, forexample, I would say the minimum wage causes labor shortages, just like anyother price control. Okay? Um, but to your point, that's just a, it's notreally a numerical argument, it's just a, the logic of supply and demand.

(00:47:36):

But let's say I was an economist whoreally wanted there to be a minimum wage, given the fact there are 8 billionpeople or so on earth. And given the fact that I'm sure, you know, there's atleast dozens of governments that, um, enforce minimum wage laws, I can justthat, in other words, that's so much data that I can always mine whatever dataI need to reinforce my narrative. And so the argu the counter-argument to thesenumerical nar, numerical backed narratives is, in my opinion, not to do thesame. Like, I don't think we have to fight garbage with garbage. I think wejust go back to first principles. I don't know if you have anything, if you,uh, if you agree with that, Brian.

Brian De Mint (00:48:13):

I mean, I think that's the answer,<laugh>, I think, yeah, you, you nailed it right on the head. Uh, go backto First Principles. Um, I will suggest anybody that, uh, hasn't read itbefore, um, there's a short book, it's probably like 90 pages, it's called Howto Lie With Statistics. Um, and it's, it's a really helpful book to find, youknow, it just walks through the different ways that somebody could lie withstatistics. So I think that that's a, a helpful starter kit for somebody, uh,that's wanting to learn more about this stuff.

Logan Chipkin (00:48:40):

Yeah, I noticed, um, uh, I, I watchsometimes debates between conservatives and progressives, you know, and they'llbe arguing about healthcare or like I said, minimum wage, and it just ends updevolving into you of your numbers, and I have my numbers, whereas in reality,um, you do kind of have to quote, unquote bite the bullet of talking aboutfirst principles. Um, uh, but I think that's the correct approach, uh, as yousaid. So br uh, Kent, unless you had something I had, uh, something to sayabout the bleeding heart libertarian stuff, Brian, if you wanna get into it,but Kent, go ahead.

Kent Halliburton (00:49:12):

Well, I, I, I'm, I'm open, we getsome of our audience, uh, jumping up here, and I wanna get back to bleedingheart, but I, I actually am just really curious to know, you know, as, as aBitcoin evangelist, what is your favorite approach when you, uh, start a conversationwith somebody you don't know? Like what, what's your go-to strategy, Brian, to,uh, to Orange Pill?

Brian De Mint (00:49:36):

Well, you know what, what I will sayis I found the easiest way to, to Orange Pill somebody isn't, I mean, this islike the biggest undersell for my book ever. Um, <laugh>, it would be tohave them download like Blue Wallet or Wallet of Satoshi and just send somebody10,000 SATs, like just, just transfer them, you know, something that, and, andthat, that accomplishes a few things. It shows the magic of Lightning Network,um, and the speed. And then you show 'em how, look at like, I'm gonna pull upthe transaction, look at, there was like no fee. And, uh, sometimes there'slike a few SATs, but it's, you know, basically we just used software andmathematics to send value. Like you could have been in Amsterdam right now, youcould have been anywhere in the world, and it would've come through just asquickly.

(00:50:19):

Um, and it also reinforces this ideathat stats matter. And, um, I think people get really down on the fact thatthey, they only hold 0.0, 0, 0 0 1 Bitcoin. But when you talk about, you know,10,000 stats or a thousand stats, it, it, it re uh, I don't know, it reorientstheir, their view on stacking pieces of Bitcoin. I think that's the, uh, that'swhere crypto is won over Bitcoin for many years, is you could buy a bunch ofDogecoin for a few bucks. You could buy a bunch of x, y, z coin for only a fewdollars. And so you would hold a lot of something, right? You're appealing tosomebody being able to hold a lot of something. And so with stats, with stats,being able to stack a lot of stats, um, and show them, showing them the power,the actual utility, um, cuz it comes back to this idea that my mom and mygrandma, like, they never understood how SMTP servers work, but they would sendan email, right?

(00:51:18):

Like they understood that if theyjust typed in words and then hit send, it was going to go. And so, yeah, Ithink one of the best ways to Orange Pill people is just to show people Bitcoinworking. You know? Um, that would probably be my, my go-to now if I was gonnaappeal to an academic sense. I think I, I mostly bring up Bitcoin's scarcity. Ithink that that's the most like, pervasive thing to appeal to from an academicsense or an intellectual sense about Bitcoin. Like everybody that's post 2020that understands how much money was just magically put into thin air. I thinkBitcoin's scarcity really appeals to people that understand, wow. Like there's,there's no rains on our economy right now.

Kent Halliburton (00:52:01):

I love it, Brian. That's, uh, one ofmy favorite questions to ask each of our guests. Um, it's like, uh, scoopingthe, the cream off the surface because all the guests we've had have been sobrilliant at, at Orange Pill and people, but I, I particularly like thatapproach because you're letting actions speak rather than words and lettingpeople see the magic. It, it's always shocking when I've done that with peopleto see their reaction when you say, look, there's no banks involved with this.This is just literally the same thing as sending an email. You know, it's a,it's a protocol and yeah, it's, it's wild. Um, so again, if anybody's gotquestions and wants to jump on stage here and ask, Brian would love to, uh,love to hear them. And if not, uh, Logan, you want to get into your, uh,bleeding heart liberal, uh, conversation here with Brian.

Logan Chipkin (00:52:51):

Well, only if Brian's comfortablewith it. But, um, one thing. So, you know, we read your book as part of ourbook club. Okay, cool. Thanks Brian. Um, and you, you used the term, um, youknow, you call yourself a bleeding heart libertarian, and you know, I am, uh, aproud libertarian, open libertarian. However, I don't like that term because Ithink it concedes the moral argument to non libertarians in the sense that, youknow, libertarians are often criticized as being selfish or, uh, immoral orsomething like that. So by saying bleeding heart, you're saying, you'rebasically saying, well, okay, there are libertarians who are immoral andselfish, but I am not. I'm a bleeding heart libertarian. In other words, it's,I we are libertarians because free markets work better than governmentsolutions to things. So we're already, quote unquote, bleeding heart. It'sembedded in the philosophy. So I, I don't think we should, uh, caveat bysaying, oh, no, no, no. We're definitely bleeding heart. We're giving into theenemy's moral framework.

Brian De Mint (00:53:46):

So I, I always love pushback. Putthese, these make for the best conversations. I'm, I'm not easily offended, soplease always, always feel free to push back these, make it fun. Um, I willstart by making a correction though. Um, it's, the term is bleeding heartcapitalist, not bleeding heart. Liber, libertarian. Um, so <laugh> just,just, sorry,

Logan Chipkin (00:54:05):

Sorry.

Brian De Mint (00:54:06):

<laugh>. So, yeah, and it, andit's, I think what it is, and I come from, uh, before an economy background, Icome from a, a marketing background <laugh>. And so I'm always thinkingabout reframing, uh, the, the, the discussion. Um, I think that that's whereprogressives have won over conservatives for the last, like two generations isby being able to, uh, co-opt terms and being able to take the moral high groundin things. And frankly, like, yeah, anybody that's studied Austrian economicsunderstands the morality behind that, that it's like, it's not the lovey doveything on the surface, but it's actually the best way to love people<laugh> it's free markets. Um, but you have to intellectually understandthat. I think that, um, I think it's been very clear over the last like coupleyears, um, that that things that look loving on the surface aren't always, andso, like, I, I'm trying not to like talk about the masking. I'm just gonnabring up the mask with covid I was trying to beat around that bush, but that's,that's what's in my mind.

Logan Chipkin (00:55:08):

Go for

Brian De Mint (00:55:08):

It. The mask, the mask with Covid, itwas the easiest way to virtue signal to other people that I care about you. Um,the, the science behind it wasn't, wasn't compelling. <laugh>, the, the,you know, the, the science actually in opposition to it was actually verycompelling for anybody that was able to like, access that stuff, uh, thatwasn't on a, on a censored website. Um, but it's like they, they co-opted thisthing of the mask of, they just took the moral high ground. And so, um, it waslike anytime that you didn't wear a mask somewhere, you were willing to killanybody that was in that room. And it was just like this very powerfulmechanism. Um, and now I think there's a good argument to say like, well, we asthe people that actually understand how things work, we let's not play thatstupid narrative game.

(00:55:54):

And I think that's kind of the, the,the point you're coming from, um, is like, no, let's not get, let's not getmixed up in narratives. I think my perspective is I just wanna win<laugh>, you know, I want Bitcoin to win. And I think in doing that, um,everything's a game of propaganda. I don't think people, people don't like whenI say that, but everything, there's, there's good propaganda and there's badpropaganda, and I think there's a lot of bad propaganda in the world. And so Ithink it's our responsibility as Bitcoiners to push forward, like really goodpropaganda. Um, and I can, you know, we can call that marketing, we can callthat some other word, um, but being able to co-opt terms and take the moralhigh ground because our philosophies are the moral high ground. Um, and sobeing able to, um, define them that way I think is a really important thing.

Logan Chipkin (00:56:40):

Oh yeah, I agree with a ton of that.I mean, look, first of all, sorry for calling it bleeding heart libertarianwhere it's bleeding heart capitalist, my apologies. Uh, but secondly, I agreewith you that we are in a propagandistic war and that propaganda matters andthat you can't just, um, you know, read human action by mesis and then likepresent the arguments to people as if you're in a vacuum. You know, you have totake basically like the, the sociopolitical landscape into account. Totallyagree with you there. Uh, but then it comes to like, what is the optimalstrategy? Um, and so that's where I think I, I would disagree with bleedingheart. I bleeding heart capitalist, because as you say, uh, capitalism alreadyis bleeding heart. But I totally take your point, um, that you want to presentterms in a moralistic way as opposed to, let's say the, the, the Masco Viviansas as they're called.

(00:57:30):

Um, I don't know, but I like, forexample, okay, so I don't know, I won't speak for you. I, I don't know if youyou would go this far, but like, I'm definitely an anarcho capitalistlibertarian. Like I think, uh, free markets are superior for all goods andservices. It's a universal theory, which means the, a stateless society, uh,uh, society without a government is preferable to one with a government. Solike, it, theoretically, I'm an anarchist, but do I tell people I'm ananarchist? No, because, you know, they would think I wanna throw a Molotovcocktails at at at businesses and stuff. It's the opposite. On the other hand,you know, an an anarchist is a volunteer, basically we're, we're for peace andprivate property in free markets. So I do concede that propaganda matters. Um,but I don't know, I, I wouldn't say that I'm a bleeding heart, uh, libertarian

Brian De Mint (00:58:17):

Capitalist,

Logan Chipkin (00:58:18):

Capitalist. I, I keep doing that. I'mso sorry, <laugh>.

Brian De Mint (00:58:20):

That's good.

Logan Chipkin (00:58:21):

Well, you know, it's funny too,because often, um, kind of to your point when like we had, well, I won'tmention names, but we've had kind of, uh, lefty progressives on, I mean, uh,lefty bitcoins on, which I'm all for, I love, uh, you should expect politicaldiversity as Bitcoin, uh, becomes more and more, uh, widely adopted. So that'sfine. But I noticed when you ask them their critiques of capitalism, they endup, and you know this Brian, I'm sure they end up describing crony capitalism,but that again, they're go, that's the propaganda because it's not capitalism,it's, you could call it corporatism, frankly, you could call it fascism. If, ifwe understand fascism in the economic sense as being the merger of corporationsand state, then they basically say, we don't like capitalism. Be because wedon't like the government merging with corporations and then us, uh, bleedingheart capitalist, capitalist, I got it this time. Say, well, yeah, we'reagainst that too. Um, so I hear you.

Brian De Mint (00:59:13):

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I think that'sit. And I think that I, I, my, my perspective is that, um, the capitalists, the,the Austrians have tried for a long time to win that narrative battle, and justsadly they haven't <laugh>, you know, I mean, it's gotten to the pointwhere, like you said, we live in a quote unquote capitalist society, but it'sactually a crony capitalist society, and that's the best that we've been ableto do up until this point. Um, now, you know, there's, there's periods wherethat, that can be different. Um, but I think it's, that's why I'm thinkinglike, okay, we need to adjust our tactics a bit at this point to win that. Imean, we live in a TikTok culture. Like we, we need to be able to appeal to,uh, you know, the, the, the, the bumper sticker slogan, the ability to sumsomething up in like two seconds so that people feel smart, um, but they, uh,they can get on board with it as well.

Logan Chipkin (01:00:10):

Yeah, for sure. And you know, I willsay, as a kind of optimistic note, I'm always a, to this day, I'm amazed thatreally anyone is free market oriented at all given the fact that basically, uh,the big government people have been running the public schools, at least in theUnited States for going on a hundred years now, frankly, you know, early in the20th century, they got the public schools, then with Woodrow Wilson, we got theincome tax and the Federal Reserve. It's amazing that anyone is free marketoriented. So that alone is, like you were saying, you know, despite all thepropaganda of the last two years, the fact that you, Brian, and you know,plenty of us are saying, hold on, this is insane tyranny that is, um,definitely a white pill as the kids say, a note of optimism. And look, the factthat we're having this conversation now and people are listening, this is allcompletely new.

(01:00:58):

This is why, uh, the cathedrals, Ilike to call it, you know, the corporate press, the government, all thesepeople, that's why they're freaking out. You know, you have one guy, Elon Musk,who's not even really, I mean, is he really on our side? You know, he wasantibi bitcoin cuz of energy fu last year. He's kind of erratic. He's just nottotally with them, and even that's enough for them to go on C n N and say, ElonMusk is the devil. So there's a lot of good signs. Now I know we have to go,uh, in a minute, Brian, and I know you're under the weather, so we reallyappreciate your time. Uh, but if you have any last things to say before weclose up, the floor is yours.

Brian De Mint (01:01:31):

Well, thank you very much. Iappreciate that and thank you guys so much for, for having me. Um, again, bigadmirers of what you're doing. I thank you for <laugh> Sammi for being atool to help me fight fud. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm really excited in a, in acouple weeks I get, uh, my mi my miners go live, and so I'm interested to, uh,see, uh, see those stats coming in. Um, but um, to your point about Elon Musk,um, I, my mother-in-law and my wife always make fun of me because I, I'm sayingsomething, oh, Elon Musk did this or did that. Um, and I, the view I take isthat Elon Musk, it's like the enemy of my enemy is my friend <laugh>. Youknow, I don't necessarily trust everything Elon Musk is doing, but he's theenemy of my enemy. So, um, you know, we kind of have this, this, this kind ofcommon, this common theme.

(01:02:17):

So, um, my wife is just like, so antiEl Elon Musk in terms of like neural link and those types of things,<laugh>. Um, but I'm like, yeah, but you know what? Twitter, Twitter is aa lot better than it was, uh, because of him. So, you know, there's, there'ssome good things coming from that. Um, but as far as, um, some other thingsthat I wanna push, like I said, I, like I mentioned earlier, I've been workingwith, uh, orange Pull app. I, I would be remiss not to, to mention them again.Um, guys, go sign up for Orange Pull app. It's a Bitcoiners specific likesocial media company. Um, you can find Bitcoiners that are close to you. Itdoesn't give anybody your exact location, but it tells people that are kind oflike in your city without giving any specifics. So you can meet people that,you know, you're like relatively close to, um, if you wanna meet up with otherBitcoiners.

(01:03:01):

I think that's really important. LikeI, it's been really encouraging for me to, to do that. Um, and so I, I hopethat you guys go and check that out. It's, um, the Orange Pill app or at theOrange Pill app is their Instagram handle, and it's, uh, their website isbitcoiners.social. And so go check that out. It's a paid app. It's a, it's likea dollar 99 a month. Um, but the cool thing is it's kinda like the blue checkmark on Twitter. You know, that you're not getting bots and spammers and thingslike that. You're not getting random people like shilling you alt pointprojects and stuff like that on there, which, which is great. So anyways, um, Iwould be remiss not to shill them a little bit. Um, but like I said, with, withsame thing with SAS mining, same thing with like my book or whatever, anythingthat like I'm, I'm tweeting about, they're things that I, I really, reallybelieve in.

(01:03:44):

They're things that I think that are,are really good for like the Bitcoin social layer or the Bitcoin mining layer,any of that kind of stuff. So, um, I, I just, yeah, again, thank you for whatyou guys are doing. Thank you for the approach you take to your business modeland your guys' accessibility. I mean, Kent, you've been great, man. Um, I'vebeen able to reach out to you boys, very responsive and Logan, um, you're easyto reach Twitter as well. And so I just, anybody that has any questions from SAor if you guys are interested in what they're doing, guys, promote them. Like,if you guys don't, uh, if you guys don't have the funds or whatever to buy 'emliner right now, like retweet these guys, like retweet these Bitcoin companies.I know I, I'm seeing a lot of the different names in the, uh, the commentsright now. Um, and they do like an awesome job of retweeting my stuff orretweeting other Bitcoin companies. Like that's enough to support theecosystem. Just get the word out there. Let people know about these companiesthat are, that are building real things, um, because this is how we fight that,that F T X nonsense, this is how we fight that, you know, Celsius or whatevernonsense, um, is by supporting these, these bitcoin companies that are, thatare making a difference. So thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it.

Kent Halliburton (01:04:52):

Yeah, thank you Brian. If you'rehere, man, I'd give you a hug. I really appreciate it, man. Um, you know,anything we can do to move Team Orange forward is, is the right direction. So,uh, we'll keep supporting you and, uh, and, and telling everybody to readBitcoin Evangelism as well. And thanks for, uh, sparking it up a bit here withLogan. That was a lot of fun to listen to you to to go back and forth. Got methinking a bit. But, um, I'll, uh, I'll catch up with you later and my dms arealways accessible for, uh, anybody else that is interested, not just Brian. Allright, take good care.

Logan Chipkin (01:05:25):

Thanks everyone. Thanks Brian a lot.Appreciate the kind words. Appreciate your time here. Uh, hope you feel betterand hope, uh, you have a great holiday season. I hope everyone here has a greatholiday season. We'll be here. Sa Mining will have, uh, Twitter spaces nextweek. It'll be SaaS mining only. Uh, of course audio audience participation iswelcome. We'll just be kind of wrapping up the year talking about our favorite,uh, moments and narratives that have occurred throughout 2022. So, uh, withthat, I hope everyone has a great rest of your, and we'll see you next week.Take care, everyone. Bye.