Sazmining Podcast Episode 38: Tim Sandau on the Newfound Possibilities with Crypto

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Synopsis: 

In this episode of The Sazmining Podcast, Will speaks with Tim Sandau, CEO of Verakari. They discuss crypto trends, new developments in the energy sector, current geopolitical tensions, and more.

Tim Sandau (00:00):

It's a great opportunity for anyone to come into an industry that's truly, maybe a decade old

Will Szamosszegi (00:05):

At most. I think everyone's looking at it saying, Hey, how do I get involved

Tim Sandau (00:09):

At any moment? Anybody can make a decision in their life, changes the course of their life.

Will Szamosszegi (00:14):

Rep, I think it's important for our us to move towards renewable energy as a society. The

Tim Sandau (00:19):

Desire for quality is becoming way more than it used to be

Will Szamosszegi (00:24):

Like in the geopolitical realm. We're living through one of the craziest times right

Tim Sandau (00:28):

Now, blockchain making it easier for you is practical application of it.

Will Szamosszegi (00:33):

Tim, I am extremely excited to have you on the podcast. I know that you've been doing some awesome things in the industry. So this chat has been a long time coming.

Tim Sandau (00:41):

Absolutely, man, I've been waiting for this for a while. I'm looking forward to diving in with you today.

Will Szamosszegi (00:46):

This is gonna be the first of many chats. We, we know we got Bitcoin 20, 22 coming up in Miami. So, uh, we'll definitely have to link up there too.

Tim Sandau (00:53):

Absolutely, man, I, I cannot wait for that event. I've gone to that event for the last few years, such an exciting event. Like just the atmosphere just gets you super, super pumped to be in the industry. So I can't wait.

Will Szamosszegi (01:04):

It's so wild too, cuz I feel like it's very rare where you have so many like like-minded people. Cause I mean to the outside, a lot of the ideas that we talk about are extremely radical and they've, they almost get normalized when you speak with people who are actually working in the industry, but it's cool because you get to do it in person at that type of event and you really see, wow, this is, this is something big here. It's definitely not what, uh, I feel like a lot of people outside are looking in and, and thinking about Bitcoin, it's a whole different world.

Tim Sandau (01:31):

It, it truly, truly is. I mean, coming from the early days in crypto, when you have to explain to everyone, like what is Bitcoin and what is blockchain to like being in an environment to where everyone, you know, to some extent is knowledgeable and is super passionate about it. Like it's an amazing experience. I'm definitely looking forward to going there and meeting guys like you super excited for, you know, <inaudible> to, you know, have a booth this year and to be able to meet people and serve some needs.

Will Szamosszegi (01:57):

Yeah, for sure. Matt. Well, how about you, you talk a little bit about like your journey and the industry. I know that you're doing a lot of very cool things. It sounds like you've been in it for a while. So why don't we, uh, listen up and, and let you tell your story.

Tim Sandau (02:08):

All right, man. Yeah, definitely. I first, uh, got involved in Bitcoin fully in 2017, right? So I have a serial entrepreneur, I've come from a big entrepreneurial background. Um, and I kind of got into the whole, uh, you know, Bitcoin and crypto space almost by accident. To be honest with you, it was through another business partner of mine. We got together, we started talking, he introduced me to one of his friends that wanted to start a cryptocurrency mining company. Right. And I kind of did the, the Richard Branson approach, right. Where if you have a really good opportunity and you're not sure exactly what you should do, or if you're qualified, do it anyway and figure it out on the way. Right? So he was like, dude, I want to build this huge crypto mine. I want it to be the biggest in north America.

Tim Sandau (02:53):

I wanna build it right in your city. I want you to come, help me run it and operate it. And literally at the time, like I knew what Bitcoin was. I knew about blockchain, but I wasn't super knowledgeable, but it was a great opportunity. And I was like, I'm doing it made the decision like right there. I instantly went home, started like watching YouTube videos, reading books, you know, researching things online, just educating myself to like two or three, four o'clock in the morning, every single night. And then dove head first into the indu. When I joined the company in 2017, which is it's, it's now a publicly traded company. Uh, they had 25 miners running. Uh, when I resigned from the company they had over 20,000 miners running and it was just a great experience. I really, you know, got to get my hands dirty and, you know, get involved in the industry on a, you know, on a, on a large scale level that, you know, it's unique to be able to dive in, you know, head first that way after I resigned from that company, I did some consulting for a few years, very fortunate to work with some of the bigger names in the industry, work with a couple, um, people, not in the industry as well, some fortune 500 companies, but some consulting for them.

Tim Sandau (03:57):

Then in 2021 here just recently brought a group of guys together, you know, really focused on experience, quality guys in the industry. And we started <inaudible>, it's been, it's been a rollercoaster and an adventure, you know, it really is true what they say, man, crypto never sleep.

Will Szamosszegi (04:10):

Yeah. And I mean, it's funny too, cuz you, you see a lot of these big companies today who are like, for example, in mining particular like these massive operations, and then you realize that the industry's still so young that a lot of these companies have these types of stories, you know, behind them where it's like, as you mentioned, like 25 miners all the way up to like 20,000, I mean that's, that's an enormous jump, but everyone's learning, everyone's figuring it out. And it's kind of interesting cuz you see the network growing that way too, you know, it's like the incentives bring people in and then I feel like people dive down the rabbit hole and understand the philosophy after, after jumping in. So hearing your story, uh, really, really fascinating.

Tim Sandau (04:49):

Yeah man, it's a, it's a great opportunity. Um, for anyone to, you know, to come into an industry that's truly, you know, maybe a decade old at most, you don't get that in the industry. My entrepreneurial background, it took me in older industries. I was in real estate and restaurant and recycling. Those industries are a hundred plus years old and you know, it's established, you got your players. It's, you know, it's a really big barrier to industry, but that's why crypto is. And it still is exciting to this day. You can really come in, start a new company, get involved in a personal level and make a huge impact.

Will Szamosszegi (05:19):

Yeah. So I mean, based on what you're seeing today, like what are some of the things you're noticing? Like is there anything that's standing out like industry moves so quickly just a year ago was a different industry two years ago. Very different. I mean, what are some of the things that you're seeing coming down the pipeline that you don't think a lot of people out there might necessarily know?

Tim Sandau (05:36):

I can say one thing that I've noticed in the industry. And I think it's a very, very good thing is the desire for quality is becoming way more than it used to be back in 2016 and 17. It's just, I have a minor, I want, you know, put it on a home Depot rack in your garage and we're, you know, and we're good to go. I've I've, I've traveled a country and people were like, oh I got this, you know, huge data center. It's amazing. And then I pull up to it and it's a home address and they roll up their garage. You know, the industry is, is demanding a standard of excellence. I think as we mature, that's only normal for any business, super excited to see that in crypto, um, especially with, you know, more and more retail investors and individuals getting in, I think there's, you, you're gonna see the market trend towards people who are doing it right. And really building what I call an enterprise class facility and you know, making, um, standard operating procedures that are quality. I see the industry moving forward with a bigger desire for quality better, more than ever.

Will Szamosszegi (06:34):

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's funny the, the whole garage idea that, you know, people were, there is a time where you could just mine a computer more Bitcoin than these massive, like 10 megawatt facilities today. And the funny thing is, is like, people are gonna look back at this time thinking, oh my God, you guys used to be able to mine, like, you know, like full Bitcoin, like if you had a sizable operation, uh,

Tim Sandau (06:58):

Isn't made incredible, right? Yeah. I don't, I don't know if you were in the space at this time, but I have friends that tell me they used to, you know, turn on their laptop in their college dorm. Right. And they would, they'd wake up in the morning and they have eight or 12 Bitcoin, you know, they just, just blows my mind, you know,

Will Szamosszegi (07:13):

<laugh> no, it's awesome. I mean, what do you thinks gonna happen in the mining industry over the coming years? Cause you hear all this talk about more, obviously a lot more capitals coming in. You're seeing these big energy players coming in and saying, okay, well we gotta learn and understand this just because the incentives line up properly and can help us reduce waste. And so you see this convergence of like money, intellectual capital, larger traditional industries and the energy sector coming together. And it, it kind of seems like we're building up to this like explosion of even further growth. I know it sounds crazy to say, cuz there's been so much already, but it, it seems like we're, we're just starting to hit yet another tipping point with all the announcements and everything happening. Yeah. Like what, what are some of the things that, that you're seeing?

Tim Sandau (07:58):

I think we're, we're, we're literally just have the chance to be iceberg in when it comes to how much and how big the mining industry is, is gonna explode, you know, all the institutional money that's coming in. I think what's a really big focus is not only the institutional money cuz you know, back in the day there was, there was always some institutional money coming in and private money coming in from larger hedge funds. But what's amazing is to see the average every day, I'll say, you know, middle class American having the opportunity to invest in the crypto space. Right. There's many companies like my own like, like yours that, you know, are allowing people to buy one individual minor and one individual space. Um, and you know, being able to operate it in a state of the art facility, I think that's really gonna change the game for the mining industry. Right. It knocks out that barrier to entry, you know, it knocks out, you know, I need $5 million where I can't mine. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that's, what's truly gonna explode the space, you know, and honestly change the investment, you know, world as well. That's what I think is really gonna, you know, expand the industry.

Will Szamosszegi (08:56):

No, that's a, that's a big part that you just touched on. It doesn't get talked about that much because up until, you know, like this new wave that I would say companies like, like yours, like SA mining, this wasn't something that was accessible to retail. No one's gonna go and grind it out. Very few people are gonna go and grind it out the way that like you did, for example, like staying up until 3:00 AM every single day, figuring out how to run one of these operations. So that's awesome. And I mean, just from that perspective, like from a retail perspective, like what are some of the trends that I guess you're noticing are beginning to see, like as you mentioned, it's becoming more accessible to retail. Like there's that time in like 2018, for example, it's like yeah, no person in retail is ever gonna get in. But yeah, I'm curious, like as to what you're seeing like today, now that there are these like services that make it possible for like individual minors to begin mining how you think that that plays out

Tim Sandau (09:46):

Well, you kind of touched on it. Number one is accessibility. And number two is the, um, availability of knowledge that there is today, right? Like when you and I were, you know, were first learning in the industry, there wasn't many podcasts, if any, that were truly talking about mining, there was maybe 10 YouTube videos, you know? So I think with companies like yours and mine, the, the accessibility is at an all time high. I think people understand now at a small scale, they're gonna understand in years to come, that mining is available for everyone, but the knowledge is what's really gonna give the industry that uptick. Right. Um, they have the ability to research, you know, you and me realize that we have verifiable background, that we have, um, a knowledge base that can be fact checked and there's information that they can glean from other people on the internet online in person through conferences like BTC 20, 22, where they, where they can go and really make almost an intelligent investment decision. So I think it's super important and I think it's really good, uh, for the industry and it's necessary for the industry in order to sure.

Will Szamosszegi (10:46):

Yeah. I mean just, just exact you hit the nail on the head right there. I, I think it's necessary because really when you get down to the philosophy and the ethos of what it is that we're building, like what Bitcoin serves to the world, you wanna put it in the hands of as many people as possible. You know, you want that decentralization. And so I think it's important for companies like, for example, like yours to go and be pursuing the mission that you guys are pursuing because it makes it accessible. And that, that really is the key. Just putting minors in the hands of the people.

Tim Sandau (11:14):

Yeah. I mean that, that's kind of, you know, that that's kind of what blockchain and Bitcoin is, right. For me giving the people that power. And now that they have the ability to do that, not in their homes anymore, but, and essentially they can do that without having to have break to bank, not, you know, with making a normal investment that they would've made till their 401k, um, you know, to stocks, to, to real estate. They have the ability to, you know, do that through buying a single minor and watching it operate, watching it ROI. That's what I always tell people, you know, as I I've been buying Bitcoin for a while, I always tell people if you're not gonna mind, please at least buy Bitcoin, but it's so much value in mining for yourself personally, right? Not only do you get to buy, I'm sorry, not, um, create that Bitcoin that you, um, that you would've purchased, but then you, then, then you hold a physical asset of minor. You can see on days like day when you know, coin is, is rising. Now that minor that you purchased might be more than you paid for it. So you get to hold a physical asset and still accumulate Bitcoin, which is huge.

Will Szamosszegi (12:15):

Yeah, no, that, that's a very important point. I mean, especially like today, I'm never gonna go out and like tell someone like you shouldn't buy Bitcoin, just like you, like obviously buying Bitcoin is a good idea, not investment advice, but you know, well, very supportive of, of Bitcoin. But the other big piece to that is, is really mining is like a whole nother opportunity to get exposure. You're owning a hard asset. You're consistently minting new Bitcoin. And what, what I'd like about it is there's also like a feel good element to it. Like as a minor you're contributing to the net, you know, you're helping fortify and secure the network. You're helping decentralize the network and everything that I think that everyone, like once you plug into the Bitcoin network, you start to reap a lot of those rewards for being involved. But you get to contribute back to that with mining in a way that just holding Bitcoin, you don't really get

Tim Sandau (13:04):

Hundred percent. That's what, that's what, that's what makes it so unique and so powerful. And that's what makes the whole whole industry so powerful. So definitely I can be more excited about know the average everyday individual being able to get into the mining space. Couldn't be more happy.

Will Szamosszegi (13:18):

Yeah. And, and so I guess right now, to talk a little bit more in depth about <inaudible>, what are your current goals? Like, what are you guys looking to do, you know, over the, the next year or so?

Tim Sandau (13:27):

Like I said, RI is, is less than a year old right now. Now all my partners and myself, we have decades of experience in the industry. We have proven track records when we came together and started ver qu one of our goals. We didn't set huge goals of saying, we wanna be the biggest, we want a hundred megawatt. Don't get me wrong. We do. Okay. But we said, we wanted to focus on being quality. And we wanted to focus on being enterprise class and really, you know, setting a trend in the market for what is the right way to do things. You know, so <inaudible>, as a company, we are launching our, our, our new retail play. That's gonna allow, that's gonna allow people to, you know, get involved in the industry for as little as, you know, the cost of a minor in $500.

Tim Sandau (14:10):

It's gonna allow them to have an ROI that they can easily predict. We're super excited to launch our retail play. We're also super excited about our, um, mobile data centers that we started constructing in. <inaudible> partnered with one of the largest construction firms on the east coast, and we were able to design and then build, and then test one of our mobile data centers. It's, uh, 2.6 megawatt hold, uh, 696 miners. I believe that it is really gonna change the game for how all pod deployments are constructed. It allows for build out under a hundred thousand dollars in megawatt, you know, which is, which is good for everyone. Good for the investor. Best good for the retail minor. Good for both companies. <inaudible> just wants to continue to put out quality work and lead the industry by example.

Will Szamosszegi (14:54):

Very cool, man. Very cool. And in terms of what you're kind of like the role that you think like retail and institutions plan this space, we haven't really dove that much in depth on like the energy side. So, I mean, what are some of the pieces that you're seeing from like conversations with these energy companies that are involved in these projects?

Tim Sandau (15:12):

Yeah. Energy companies. I can tell you ma'am, they're getting smart to crypto minors. Now there was a time back in the day when I had to educate these executives on what Bitcoin was, what mining is. Those were

Will Szamosszegi (15:23):

Some fun conversations. Huh? <laugh>

Tim Sandau (15:25):

Those were, those were the days were just like hours and over and over and over again. Yeah. But the power companies now sometimes even have people that are their Bitcoin and crypto guys. I did some consulting or a publicly traded company who literally had a guy on their staff that was like, your job is to learn about the Bitcoin industry and educate us, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> so I, and that's, again, that's good for the industry, but you know, so where I see power coming on as two levels, one for, for guys like us who, who build out infrastructure, right. I think power right now is a land grab. So that's part of <inaudible> strategy is to secure as much power as possible over the next year or two years. So that way we have plenty of space to build out our facilities. It's not just putting our hands out and grabbing as much power that's available.

Tim Sandau (16:13):

It's grabbing the right kind of power. That's why I think our companies have a ton of synergies in that aspect. You know, we're big on renewable hydro. Our facility in Pennsylvania is a hundred percent carbon free nuclear power. So I think finding the right kind of power that's sustainable for the long term in the industry, not just something that we can put up and then we can build out and turn on minors, but something that we can be proud of. So, you know, the individuals who own the minors can be proud of as well. And it's education education, not only to the people who are, who are purchasing minors, but to the utility as well, letting them know that, you know, we wanna be a good partner. We wanna do what's right for the environment, Bitcoin mins get a bad rep, right? You come into town, you turn on the bunch megawatts.

Tim Sandau (16:52):

You don't hire any people. You know, you're loud, you're hot. It's, it's forming those relationships. And that's what I would encourage every Bitcoin minor to do. You know, the first thing that Riccardi does when they pull into town is they go meet with the local Ida. They go meet with the local business development manager. They try to get contacts with mayors and local senators. And we let them know, Hey, we're in town, we're here to be part of the community. We're here to contribute. Yes. We want to consume a lot of power, but this is the good we're going to do if we're able to consume that power.

Will Szamosszegi (17:22):

Yeah. I, I think that that's, that's a big piece, you know, a lot of times you don't hear about how, um, minors are contributing so much to different areas. I mean, they're definitely helping the energy companies, but mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I mean, you're, you're bringing jobs, you're bringing the ability for community participation. You're bringing money to that area. You're developing mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and a lot of times minors are the buyers of last resort when it comes to power. So they're going out to these areas that most likely would benefit tremendously from the additional power consumption and revenue coming in from the mining operation.

Tim Sandau (17:54):

Yeah, absolutely. You know, normally if there's a ton of megawatts that's immediately available, it means that something bad has happened in that community. A factory shut down a power, power plant shut down. So it's of the utmost importance to build that relationship back with the community. One of the things I'm really proud of at Vera qu is we were able to partner with a local community tech college, help them design their program to teach their students about Bitcoin and about Bitcoin mining operations. And they were able to hire directly from that program and those and those kids come outta college and they help us operate our mind. And, you know, the community was so thankful because it's a, it's a very small town, economically depressed. You know, kids were graduating college and leaving the community and now we're able to help them stay local and contribute that.

Will Szamosszegi (18:38):

Now it it's interesting. I feel like all the lives that get touched by, um, I guess Bitcoin as a whole, this is like a subset of the Bitcoin network, the whole mining industry, like it just in many ways just brings prosperity <laugh> and it sounds like very general and like, you know, very grant to say something like that. But, you know, I, I feel like does in many ways have a funny way of tying the loop and, and contributing in this regard, it's like an effective use of energy to support and open decentralized monetary now. And then you have people around the world right now that are benefiting greatly from having access to an open monetary network actually. Yeah. On, on that front, what are some of the things that you're thinking of in terms of the impact with everything happening around the world right now, like in the geopolitical realm, we're living through one of the craziest times right now. And I think it, it seems like it's only gonna get crazier over the coming years. What role do you think Bitcoin plays in that?

Tim Sandau (19:29):

Cool. That's a loaded question, but you know, part of the reason <inaudible> started was, you know, during the, the major accidents from all the minors, you know, leaving China, right. And we're like, no, now the opportunity for, you know, minors in north America to step up and take some of that market share and have the ability to control it in house, you know, definitely with situation going on with Russian crane, you know, unfortunate situation there, but it it's allowed us to see firsthand the power of what Bitcoin and what the blockchain network can do and how we can, you know, transition, you know, our more traditional currency farms to something like Bitcoin, which works, which allows money to move freely. You know? So I think all that is gonna is gonna greatly, you know, benefit, you know, Bitcoin and crypto as a whole, because we get to see real world and real life use cases for the currency.

Will Szamosszegi (20:17):

Are there any things like, not directly related to like Bitcoin or Bitcoin mining, but things that trends in tech or things that you're seeing that you think are interesting that people might not be aware of?

Tim Sandau (20:27):

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the biggest trends in tech that we we've already talked about is, is the ability for, you know, as the average everyday individual person to get into mining. And I think that's gonna be huge for the future of the space. You know, you know, I think as blockchain becomes more adaptable and as people really start to educate themselves on it, I think we're gonna see public more public understanding of blockchain as a whole. You know, I mentioned to you before I heard my back, I was at my doctor's office and he is talking to me about blockchain at the doctor's office. Right's not talking to me about Bitcoin or crypto, which everyone likes to talk about. Right. He's talking about how we can use blockchain in his own business. And everyone knows that, you know, blockchain can greatly benefit the medical field.

Tim Sandau (21:06):

So I think any programs or new startups around blockchain, making it easier for you is practical application of it. Like I said, the doctor's office and medical records are step one, probably the easiest barrier to entry, but, you know, I have, uh, other companies that I'm involved with that, you know, purchase things from the ports and do a lot of importation where I think blockchain can come in and really save the day. And it's not much, you know, there, there's not a ton of money or capital that would truly have to go in that, you know, the blockchain is ready, it's ready for use. I think in the next, you know, six, 12 months that we can see a mass mass adoption of, you know, practical uses for blockchain.

Will Szamosszegi (21:40):

Yeah. It it's so fascinating too, because I feel like everyone goes through this cycle of their understanding of Bitcoin blockchain technology. And I've, I've just looked back at my own journey and I've realized, wow, my thinking has changed on this over time. Always different things. I was like, I first learned about Bitcoin and dove in to all these other protocols and learned about how like blockchain works in like at a really fundamental level. And then it kind of brought me back to Bitcoin in such an interesting way. And I feel like so many people that I've spoken with have kind of gone down that journey where all routes are, are leading back to Bitcoin in the sense of like Bitcoin being the killer app for blockchain and then figuring out, okay, well, where can we apply blockchain in these other industries? Like, are you gonna see it, blockchain solving all the world's problems? Most likely not, but it can solve a lot of them if done, if done properly. I'm in agreement with you. I think that we're still extremely early in that whole transition to seeing successful applications of blockchain at scale.

Tim Sandau (22:38):

Yeah. It's, it's, it's great to see the public becoming, you know, more educated, you know, I, I, I, haven't had to explain to a lot of people, what is Bitcoin, right. And a long time now. And I think that's a really, really good thing that we can see for the, for the whole industry. Now we're talking about, you know, okay, well, how can we apply this in our daily lives? Or how does this make sense? And, you know, I think we can really, we really see the industry maturing in that, you know, in that statement, like you said, super important.

Will Szamosszegi (23:04):

So this, this kind of a side tangent, but it reminds me of like, hearing you talk about that reminds me of the story from when I was in high school, speaking with one of my friends at that time, both of us, like in reality, knew nothing about investing stocks, whatever it may be. And we were talking about Tesla and, you know, at this time Tesla was very, very early on and he mentioned like, oh, I told my dad to buy it. And he didn't like, if he would've listened to me, he could've made so much money and I know nothing about investing or stocks or anything, but I'm looking at it like, yeah, like we knew that Tesla was gonna be big, like it was gonna do, do a good job. I think at the time Tesla had just shot up to something like, like 60 something dollars or something.

Will Szamosszegi (23:46):

Yeah. Like it was like almost nothing, but it kind of the reason why I bring up that anecdote is cuz right now I'm looking at Bitcoin. Right. And you have all these people who are looking at it like how my friend and I are looking at Tesla like, oh, like if we had only bought it back when it was like, you know, $5,000 a coin or like 6,000, like we would've made so much money. But I think that people in the general public are eventually over time gonna realize like, wait, the people today are still unbelievably early. Like if Bitcoin gets to $10 million a coin or whatever your personal prediction is on that, then getting in at 47 K whatever it may be is pennies. <laugh> compared to like what people like in 20, 30, 40 years are gonna be paying

Tim Sandau (24:29):

Man, that that's such a good point. People ask me constantly. And again, not investment advice at all, but people ask me constantly, you know, what should I do? Should I keep buying? Is the price too high? Is the price too low? My, my personal opinion on this is that you have the opportunity to mine or buy Bitcoin. The price is never too high. I personally believe that you're still very, very early in the game of buying Bitcoin and you know, other, other currencies as well. I think people don't realize that the industry is a decade old at most. Right. I think people don't realize that the game in, in crypto was just starting. You know what I mean? Like touching back to our earlier conversations, you know, companies like yours and my, my own, we can come in and we can make a huge impact on the industry, but the individual, um, you know, buyer and, and older Bitcoin can do the same thing. I truly believe in the next two decades that will be prevalent to be able to own Bitcoin. It's gonna be a, a scarce asset that the everyday average person is gonna slowly start to lose the opportunity to be able to acquire it.

Will Szamosszegi (25:29):

Yeah. It's people, I find myself at times with my friends who are outside of crypto fielding, those types of questions like, oh, Bitcoin just, just dropped like 10%, 15% what happened. And then on the flip side, sometimes it shoots up and they're like, what happened with Bitcoin? It just shot up like 20%. And I'm just thinking like, you know what, people who are scared to buy it because of the volatility, would you have been scared to buy apple, Amazon Facebook in 2012, knowing what you do today? It's like, yeah, no, it's, it's not gonna make a difference if there's a 20% difference in the price in that day to day, because you're going to make over 10 X returns and like, just, just hold on a little bit longer. Like let, let it do what it needs to do.

Tim Sandau (26:09):

Believe it, it, in the big vision, you know, it is so important, again, not investment advice, but I'm a big fan of, you know, acquiring it. Mining is the best way. If you're not gonna mind buying it as, you know, second best way, but acquiring it and really holding it, you know, for the long term, if you're able,

Will Szamosszegi (26:25):

Well, that that's another piece too, where I look at it. And this is one of the reasons why, like I wanted to also focus on like the retail is because on a philosophical level, it's very obviously important for people to have the ability to hold Bitcoin. Like it's like apex property rights, you can custody or Bitcoin, you can, there's just so many benefits to it. It, and it empowers people, but it doesn't give people access to the base layer. The, the minors are literally like the central banks of the world today, you know, absolutely. We're the ones minting the new Bitcoin following the rules, the monetary policy and the protocol. And I think that you, you see that today and you realize, wait, it's important to put this in the hands of the people like granted, it's important to have large corporations that do it too, but you wanna give a ramp that allows an everyday person to own their own minor.

Will Szamosszegi (27:15):

And it's not feasible to expect people to go out, figure out how to run a minor, buy their own minors and, and do it all themselves. It just isn't feasible for people to go do that and your population isn't gonna go do that. So that's why it's important for companies like ours that go and really put that in the hands of the people and let people mine and let people MIT their own Bitcoin and having the courage to do it and taking that leap. Um, they should make a lot of money from it. And mining is a great way to make a lot of money.

Tim Sandau (27:43):

I think we we're both aligned on that for sure. Um, yeah, I, I, like I said, I love the opportunity that's available in mining right now, but I'm most excited, which I think you shared the same vision about the opportunity for the everyday average American or person around the world to be able to get their hands, you know, involved into it. If, you know, we say it a lot in our own circles, but if, if you just really stop and think about the average everyday person can be directly in, involved in printing occurrence. Right. And think about how weird that would be if you were talking about printing USB or any other type of currency around the world, but you have the opportunity to buy in, contribute to this system and actually, you know, produce it yourself. And that'ss really quite amazing if you take the time to really think about it.

Will Szamosszegi (28:29):

<laugh> yeah, exactly. It's not like you can go out and buy a machine that prints dollar or bills and not get in trouble. You know, you'd go to jail for something like that, but right. Literally it's like, okay, well you can do that with Bitcoin. Mine. Yeah. It's like your own money printer. It's really, really fascinating. Yeah.

Tim Sandau (28:45):

Amazing technology.

Will Szamosszegi (28:47):

Yeah. And, and I mean, today, you know, money is being printed. It's not like you out there listening can go print it. <laugh>, you know, that's, that's against the law, but you know, this is a way to print money, but instead of money, it's better than money. It's like, yeah. Like, uh, money printer on steroids, um, uh, which is, which is Bitcoin

Tim Sandau (29:06):

Line. Yeah. And you're gonna, you're gonna print a, you know, a piece of this currency that's never, ever gonna be duplicated or printed again. And you're, you know, you're printing a scarce asset as well, which is again, mind blowing, if you truly think about it in the industry. I mean, I talk to crypto guys every day. I talk to investors every day. I talk to other minors every day we get so used to throwing around these terms. But if you truly take a minute to think about what we're doing on a bigger picture here gives me goosebumps

Will Szamosszegi (29:33):

<laugh> oh yeah. Yeah. Well, it's something that, you know, gets, you can get excited about getting up every day in the morning and working on, you know, like, yeah, I, I don't know about you, but I mean, it's, it's hard to work on something those long hours, unless you're actually truly passionate. Like I'm not gonna go and work like long hours for Coca-Cola or like some other company, which, you know, great. I love Coke. I think it's provide a valuable product to the world, but it's not like it's just completely different ballgame. And I think that that's one of the things too, where people like us were fortunate to be able to work in this industry because it just attracts the talent, like look at where the talent's going and you'll see where the world's going. Absolutely the talent is going into this industry. And I think that the talented and, and bright individuals and those visionaries, those pioneers, they see that if you wanna enact change on a large scale, then the best way to leverage your time and your contribution is to do it while leveraging and plugging into the Bitcoin network.

Tim Sandau (30:30):

And I, I think you hit the, you know, you hit the nail on the, you know, on the head, there is talking about the talent of coming in the industry and why that should give the, the average everyday investor more Cnce, you know, to wanna purchase minors and purchase big Bitcoin and get involved in the space. You set it a hundred percent watch where the talent, um, is going. You see where the future is going, right. I'm gonna brag about my team a little bit here. I was super excited start <inaudible> because of the people who are willing to come on board, you know, and join the team here. I mean, we we've, we've got people from major companies around the us, Google, Facebook, you know, fidelity, and you see those trends throughout every company, right? You see people leaving more traditional banking systems and, you know, high dollar jobs and fortune 500 companies to go into the Bitcoin and blockchain into the crypto space. And that, I think that's a real tell-all for where the future is going. You know, when you have some of the brightest minds in the country that are saying, we're gonna leave our wall street jobs. Right. And we're, and we're gonna go into a startup, we're gonna mind Bitcoin in Pennsylvania or Maine or Georgia. Right. I think that's a huge te for the average everyday investor to really have confident, to know that, you know, their investment is, is going into the future of where the brightest minds in America. I think it should be.

Will Szamosszegi (31:40):

Yeah. That's one of the things that like, you know, really stood out because like, for example, when I started, I started SA may in 2018. And through that time, you know, as any startup, when you're raising, trying to raise capital and grow the team, there's like this, you know, ebb and flow to it. And I was just amazed by like the quality of people that wanted to just join when they could go and make so much more at some other company there's like a pull and a magnetism to this industry where you just, I think everyone's looking at it saying, Hey, how do I get involved? And then the companies that are built in this time are the ones that really are fortunate to benefit from being able to go and attract and, and work with those incredible people to build whatever it is they're trying to build. Yeah.

Tim Sandau (32:21):

I think mining Bitcoin are being in the industry on any scale is the most powerful networking pool available today. Even not only for guys like us, but even for people who are interested in purchasing one minor. Right. Just to say that you're doing, that opens up many, so many, so many doors for you. You, I can't tell you how many circles that I've got in that I I've had no business being in the room with people like that, you know, or I was, you know, I would've never gotten inside those circles if it wasn't for Bitcoin and not even at the same scale that I, that I am at now. I mean, you know, a few years ago when I just had a bunch of F nine S running, just being able to use that as a barrier to entry. Right. Hey, I'm mining Bitcoin. Yeah. Just being able to say that, man, it just everyone's like, I want to hear more, come here, sit down with me, come back back

Will Szamosszegi (33:07):

To me. You can, you can, that is such a good point. You can enter any, cause it's almost like, uh, like an education, right? Like I, some of the people that like, I've, I've spoken with regarding SA mining who really, really high level guys that are like, Hey, like I'd be interested to get involved purely because I'm viewing it as like an education piece. You know? It's like, if you have an ownership, like a financial stake in something, you're gonna learn about it. And it's like a fast track course to understanding, okay, well, how does this work? Oh, how am I earning Bitcoin? What is my machine doing? And then you can talk about it and really provide value to anyone who is, has some sort of interest in crypto, blockchain, Bitcoin. They would love to hear from a minor. And you, you, you can dip your toes in, without previously.

Will Szamosszegi (33:51):

You could have gotten involved in mining for a much lower barrier to entry, obviously. Right. Um, but today, I mean like that, you're gonna see fewer and fewer people have that, you know, badge of honor, where you can say, Hey, I'm a Bitcoin line. And that's a badge of honor that, that I think is something very special. Like when you go and you turn onto your R and you understand like, Hey, like I own a minor I'm contributing to the network. There's a sense of ownership and sovereignty to that, that I, I don't think that I can properly explain I'm here on a podcast. <laugh> um, it's more so like a feeling yeah. Of, of empowerment that, yeah. You know, obviously it's great to own Bitcoin and you, you get a sense of that with Bitcoin, but it's like a whole nother level when you're an actual mind.

Tim Sandau (34:31):

And it doesn't matter to the scale. Like maybe in five years, it will. But in today in, in, in, in 2022, it doesn't matter to the scale just doing it gets you into the conversation, gets you into the room, whether you have one miners or a hundred miners, if you said I'm mining Bitcoin, the doors fly open. So it's such a, it's such a good point. And definitely, probably one of the most underestimated networking tools in the country right now. <laugh>

Will Szamosszegi (34:55):

Yeah, yeah, no, it it's funny. Like, I, I noticed the same thing too. Like when I'd started SA mining and like really dove in, like, you start to learn about how this stuff really worked at a deep level. And then all of a sudden you have your foot in the door and all these other conversations. And because you start mining first off, you learn much more, you learn much more quickly, and then you get your foot in the door of circles that you normally wouldn't have. And then all of a sudden, you know, you've got a great, a great footing to stand on in those conversations. So it, it is something that I'm grateful for that has truly changed my life. It sounds like it is truly changed your life. And yeah. Um, I guess we we're likeminded in the sense that now we're going and we're, we're pushing it out to, to more people and trying to help touch more people's lives.

Tim Sandau (35:36):

Yeah. I, I think that should be everyone's goal in the industry right now is doing quality work, enterprise class work trend setting work to be able to impact more people. You know, the Bitcoin industry gets a really bad rep and sometimes in some, in some situations it was, you know, in the earlier days, you know, it was, it was deserved, but I'm really seeing a trend of a large scale minor to the endo consumer wanting to do the right thing when it comes to the crypto play, wanting to use sustainable, clean energy, wanting to understand, not just that it it's a printing press, but how it works and the technology behind it and where it's going for the future. So I'm super, super excited and blessed to be in the industry.

Will Szamosszegi (36:14):

<laugh> yeah. Well, on that front, like this is something that I've been having a ton of conversations about, um, is like this energy side of it. Not just like from a business fundamentals perspective, but from like an energy mix perspective, for example, we're focused on, on working with renewable energy, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> that sentence doesn't fully encompass, like my whole value set when it comes to looking at energy. And so I've dove into some conversations in depth on this, and I feel like this is something where you see different minors fall across different parts of the spectrum, but I'm curious, like, do you guys have like any particular mandate or any type of way that you're looking at the energy mix or like how, how do you guys view it? Like in terms of your like positioning in the industry,

Tim Sandau (36:57):

The first thing, you know, number one process, you know, when we're looking for a new place to mind is not only where's the power available, but where's the power coming from, you know, it was it's utmost important to us, you know, that we're using clean energy, carbon free energy is, you know, the minimum standard, renewable energy like hydro is, is amazing. And we we'd love to be there a hundred percent, one day. It's the first, the first check smart on our vetting process, right. Is where is the energy coming from and working with energy companies to let them know, you know, we work with the power companies in Pennsylvania and we're like, Hey, we wanna buy clean carbon free energy from, can, can you Fize, here's why we want to do it, but this is, you know what, and like I said, it is just having those relationships. So yeah, to answer your question, man, that that is check mark number one for us. And I am, I'm glad that, you know, when I first met you and members of your team, that I was checking our check mark, number one for you as

Will Szamosszegi (37:48):

Well. And this is where it gets really philosophical, where it's not like, as like it's so hard to have this conversation with someone, if they're not like deeply in the sector, like people like you and I we've spoken with different energy companies who understand how, like the grid work, you understand like how everything's interconnected and relates my big passion with the renewable energy piece is like, when you look at things at a societal level, I think it's important for our us to move towards renewable energy as a society. But mm-hmm, <affirmative> for example, like I'm not one of those people who like goes and looks at people who, you know, oiling like natural gas and like these like more, you know, these companies that are technically under the bucket of fossil fuels and looking at them as, you know, as people that need to shut down operations.

Will Szamosszegi (38:33):

For example, I think that like, you know, advance the civilization. It's important to build more renewables now, but also, you know, recognize the value of, uh, those other non-renewable energy sources. And you don't have to comment on that. Cause I know that this, like, this is like an area where PE it gets very, uh, dicey with certain, just depending on like who's who you're talking to, who the audience is. And I know that some people might not like that approach that, that I take on it, but at least from our perspective, like it says mine we're focused on renewables. We want to drive forward renewables and that's our mandate, but I also recognize the clear value that non-renewable energy sources play in that transition. That makes sense. Yeah.

Tim Sandau (39:12):

I, I think at this point in time with the age of the industry, you know, it's, it's, again, my own personal opinion, but we have to recognize that value, you know, we've seen recently in the news, right. We've seen Exxon get into the game, you know? Yeah. They're announcing that they're gonna use their flare gas to get into the industry. Um, you know, so we see these, these oil giants coming in. Um, I think they're a very, very important part to the maturity. Um, not only mining, but of the whole crypto and blockchain space in general. So they, they definitely have value

Will Szamosszegi (39:39):

<laugh>. Yeah, for sure. Well, I got one question left. It's a tough one. <laugh> but it's like when I, I ask it at, at the end of every single, uh, one of the conversations. So what is one thing that you believe to be true that the majority of people would disagree with you about

Tim Sandau (39:53):

Wow. That, and that is a good question.

Will Szamosszegi (39:56):

<laugh> no, well, I, I really like it because it, you, you kind of get to see how someone thinks, but you also get to, um, like learn something from someone who's obviously smart, intelligent, um, has done a lot. And, you know, they're sharing something that an unpopular opinion that the majority of people would disagree with them about.

Tim Sandau (40:13):

I'm gonna, you know, I'm, I'm gonna share something more on an entrepreneurial level than a crypto level. Yeah. But you know, the one thing that I believe to be a hundred percent true is at any moment, anybody can make a decision in their life that changes the course of their life forever. Um, you know, like deciding to get into the crypto space, deciding to get into the mining space, uh, you know, it it's that one light bulb decision or that one, you know, rock bottom decision. And if you have the mental capacity, the mental strength and the mental toughness to focus in on that one decision, your whole life could change. You know, you, you hear the quote, right. Be obsessed or be average, right. And it sounds a little extreme, but if you're truly gonna, you know, live your life by that, I think, uh, amazing, great things can happen.

Will Szamosszegi (40:59):

That's awesome. Well, that, that's a great place to finish up. So I, I really appreciate you, you know, coming on taking the time, this has been a lot of fun and wishing you the best success with Kar. I'll see you in Miami, and we're gonna have to do this again some time.

Tim Sandau (41:12):

Absolutely man. Appreciate the conversation today was a lot of fun looking forward to my Miami. Great.

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