Twitter Spaces Transcript: The State of Bitcoin, Q3 2022 with Will Szamosszegi & Kent Halliburton
Will Szamosszegi and Kent Halliburton discuss the Bitcoin Mining Council's recent report on the state of Bitcoin Mining. They also discuss the many different ways that Bitcoin mining is ushering in an energy revolution in real time.
Link to Audio:
Logan Chipkin: Hey, Matt. Welcome. All right, love the thumbs up. Bit 49. Hope you're doing all right today. Can we get a thumbs up from you too? You're having a good day so far, Almost the weekend. Excellent.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, so today, um, we don't have a non SaaS mining guest, so it'll just be, um, our president and coo Ken Halliburton, and our CEO and founder Will Sam Zei. And we're going to talk about the state of Bitcoin mining in Q3 2022. There were some interesting, um, number updates from the Bitcoin Mining Council. Um, and then we're going to talk about basically the seven ways that Bitcoin mining improves humanities relationship with energy. Uh, there's a nice article in Bitcoin Magazine from, um, about a month and a half ago that I really liked. I think it kind of outlined all the different ways. Uh, and also I should emphasize, uh, particular, particularly because we don't have a guest today. Um, we very much encourage audience participation today. If you have questions for us regarding Bitcoin mining and energy, or if you have questions about SA Mining, uh, our business model, what our plans are, we're more than happy to field any questions. Um, and I see Will has arrived. What's up? Will, I'm inviting you to the stage. Uh, I was just telling the folks kind of outlining what we're going to talk about, and I was also telling them that, uh, because we don't have a guest today, we very much encourage, um, any questions or comments from the audience, either with regards to, with regards to Bitcoin mining and energy, or questions about SAS mining itself. What can we do for the customers? What's our kind of philosophy? What's our business model? Any question is fair game, for sure.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm looking forward to this, uh, this conversation we got going here.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, I, uh, yeah, so we, we can kind of get started just to warm up talking about, um, the Bitcoin Mining Council report. Um, but before that, I'll, I'll just reset, uh, the room and kind of introduce myself. My name's Logan Chikin. I'm the content manager with SA Mining. Um, I have a long and history, uh, background in writing on all sorts of stuff. I'm very interested in economics and politics and, and money, um, which is, uh, why I'm very passionate about kind of what we do at SA Mining. And, uh, Will, do you wanna introduce yourself?
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Logan. Um, my name is William Sam Masei, and I'm the CEO and founder at SaaS Mining. Um, as Logan mentioned, you know, all of us here at SA Mining, uh, we're extremely passionate about the things that we work on, the content that we put out. And, uh, you know, that is one of the reasons why we wanted to go and do these Twitter spaces. Uh, you know, speaking with people who are not only customers, but in the industry, curious about it, that that's at the end of the day how we move the industry forward, how new ideas form, and how, uh, narratives are shaped. So, um, yeah, want to say that I'm extremely grateful for each and every one of you guys that shows up. And, uh, yeah, we're happy to talk about anything regarding size mining, bitcoin, bitcoin mining, the energy industry, or, uh, any, any questions that you guys want to ask. And it also looks like, uh, Ken just joined us up here on stage. So, uh, Ken, Yeah, we're just running through quick backgrounds, so I'll pass it off to you and then we can dive into some of the content that Logan has planned for us today.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, Excellent. Well, I don't know if, uh, we've given Logan a chance to introduce himself, but, uh, if not, we definitely should. Um,
Logan Chipkin: Oh, I did. That's kind of you, but I did introduce myself, so please go ahead and, uh, introduce yourself, but thank you.
Kent Halliburton: Excellent. All right. So, yeah, my name's Ken Halliburton, uh, president and COO at SA Mining, and I run the internal operations for our business here. Uh, I have a deep background in solar energy, having worked in that, uh, for more than a decade, primarily doing rooftop solar and scale help to scale two organizations, a second of which was publicly traded and operating in nine different states. Um, I have an engineering background, so my take on energy is very pragmatic, um, and nuanced, uh, based on my understanding of the grid and various, uh, types of energy assets. So I don't believe there's a one size fits all when it comes to energy, but, uh, really something that has to work with the, the local, uh, built environment. Uh, that said, uh, like Will, I'm very grateful to have each and every one of you here and have the opportunity to speak with you and share what we know and are learning about the Bitcoin mining industry. And excited to hear what Logan has peed up for us here today. So I'll turn it over to you, Logan.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, thanks Kent. And, uh, I'll just say once more before we dive in that, um, especially because we don't have a guest today, um, audience participation is certainly encouraged whether you wanna ask a question or comment on the topics at hand, or if you want to talk about or ask about SaaS mining in, uh, as well, uh, any question is totally welcome. So, with that said, um, yeah, I wanted to talk first about, um, the Bitcoin Mining Councils Q3 2022 report on Bitcoin mining. So for those who don't know, the Bitcoin Mining Council is basically a voluntary global forum of bitcoin mining companies and kind of ancillary companies in the field, um, across the Bitcoin industry. And interestingly, I didn't know this, uh, the Bitcoin Mining Council now represents a little over 45% of the global bitcoin mining network. So any survey results they acquire, these are not going to be trivial numbers.
Logan Chipkin: Now, of course, it's not a hundred percent of the network, and, and they certainly, um, modify their numbers accordingly, but they're certainly, um, reliable now. Um, their latest report focused on three main metrics, um, all of which we should be concerned about, concerned whether they're good or bad. That is, um, electricity consumption of the Bitcoin network, um, efficiency, which I find particularly interesting. And then the sustainable power mix, which is of course very much, uh, in the minds and hearts of everyone at SaaS mining. Since we have a, we, we run our miners on, uh, solely renewable energy or waste energy. Now, uh, the first number I wanted to kind of share with Kent and Will and see what their thoughts are, is that the latest electricity mix for the Bitcoin network is around 67.8%. So to me, um, you know, I've seen numbers in previous quarters that basically hover around two thirds.
Logan Chipkin: Um, according to this latest report, the sustainability mix has increased by about 3% since this time last year. Uh, to me, I don't necessarily want to, um, celebrate the 3% increase in the sense of, uh, because our, our arguments don't really, um, rely on such small increases anyway, um, better to just make the kind of fundamental appeals of why Bitcoin mining is so good for our relationship with both energy and the environment and the long term fact that this is literally being proven out as we speak. Um, and I basically, I say that I hesitate to, let's say, celebrate the 3% increase in particular, and I spoke about this with Will, at one point, he might not remember, cuz it was kind of brief, but there was, um, there was another article in a mainstream outlet, um, and they were kind of poo-pooing the fact, uh, previously in this year that the Bitcoin network had, uh, reduced its renewable energy mix and it was a number comparable to 3%. So my kind of strategic argument is we shouldn't waste our time either celebrating, let's say short term increases and listening and like defending the network against critics who point out every short term decrease. Instead, we should just point to the long term trends and then the fundamental reasons underlying those long term trends. So with that, I'll, uh, take a breath and see if, uh, will and Kent have anything to add to that.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, thank you Logan. And, uh, I, I do remember speaking with you about this. Uh, I, I think that one thing that's important to point out here too is that, um, with all of these numbers, uh, right now the, the numbers hovering at about two thirds, uh, it, it also depends on which study you're looking at, right? Logan, you might know off the top of your head cuz we, we also talked about, uh, Cambridge's report, uh, but theirs was I think covering just below 50%, if I'm not mistaken.
Logan Chipkin: Uh, yeah, they had numbers that, and I think they even said it, and this is a little bit outdated now, but yeah, they were, um, under 50%. That's right. But even then, I think they admitted that it was higher than most other industries at that number.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and at the end of the day, I think that, um, one of the things that, that we believe within this entire conversation is that first off, the way that, uh, the Bitcoin mining industry energy consumption is looked at is, uh, really unfair in many ways. You know, you don't look at other industries the same way. Uh, no one's going and questioning the energy mix of, uh, their t-shirts or computers or iPhones, but looking at that in Bitcoin mining has become the norm. That aside, as you mentioned, Logan, even with the lower percentage renewable mix, Bitcoin mining as an industry is very, very, uh, renewable focus. And I think that you see that because it's naturally how the incentives of the network play out, uh, in, in regards to our view on energy. I think that at the end of the day, human wellbeing thrives from harnessing energy in a better way.
Will Szamosszegi: And you can minimize human suffering around the world if you find a good way to harness the energy and resources around the world. And so, uh, at the end of the day, our belief is that, uh, bitcoin mining is the killer solution, the killer application for spawning and harnessing more energy around the world. It's doing that in large part with renewable energy, just from the natural incentives of the Bitcoin mining protocol. But overall, I think it's, it's very, very good just to have the incentives line out and how it's able to push more energy harnessing around the world, bootstrapping energy assets, uh, bitcoin mining is a pioneer species, uh, for energy is B brand, Qud is pointed out. And, um, I think that these numbers that you see in the survey just go to support that. And so I, I think the numbers are great and I think that over time they're gonna continue going and skewing towards more renewable energy sources as well as more carbon negative negative energy sources.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, well I, I largely agree with, uh, with your thoughts there on renewables. And I think that, you know, if we, if we scale out and look not just at a quarterly basis, but on an annual basis, it's pretty clear that the percentage of renewables in the mining industry is increasing. And I don't think that there's any shocking reason for that. It's just simply because Bitcoin mining wants the cheapest energy out there and that energy is what's wasted, and renewables have an awful lot of wasted or underutilized energy. And so seeing this tick up, um, doesn't surprise me and is somewhat validating. Although to Logan's point, it does fluctuate year over year. I think, you know, when I look at the overall arguments from the mainstream about Bitcoin mining, I think it's really kind of incumbent on us and the bitcoin mining industry to push a narrative to help people separate the idea that electricity consumption and carbon output are one and the same because they're not.
Kent Halliburton: And I think that's just been a gross oversimplification, um, in the media that bitcoin mining is going to help separate. Cuz when you look at it, it is clear that human flourishing correlates to harnessing more energy, but harnessing more energy does not mean that we need to create more carbon, um, in doing so. And I think that that is actually the challenge that we, in the mining industry face. And I find it particularly interesting, the focus on the energy side, the supply and the creation of Bitcoin. Uh, and relatively little focus on the, um, demand side of Bitcoin because I think that there's also, um, a huge reduction in energy, uh, that's coming from that side. And what do I mean by that? Uh, I mean that, I don't know, a single Bitcoin that hasn't reduced their personal consumption. Uh, looking forward to being able to purchase more goods and services in the future. And I think as that piece unfolds, we're actually gonna see quite a bit, uh, less energy being consumed with the rest of society as a result of that delayed consumption. That's just a personal thesis, but I think it's pretty fascinating and will actually accelerate, um, kind of the adoption of Bitcoin by the ESG movement when we can start to have some data that that validates that not only the supply side of Bitcoin and the impact on the grid, but also the change to human behavior is gonna help, uh, avert climate change.
Logan Chipkin: Uh, Kent, going off that point, and Will, and I spoke about this, and I know Kent, we also briefly spoke about this, but Will and I spoke about this yesterday too, is, um, kind of another way, You know, of course this touches on the, the time preference stuff that Safe Dean writes about, and that he was inspired by some of my own heroes, kind of at the Mees Institute, but I digress. Um, so when you say, you know, people don't, basically, people on a Bitcoin standard will live a less consumer lifestyle because the returns of long term investing of low time preference behavior of, um, living not for the here and now, but for the future, these are all, they become more efficient on a hard money standard because the money's not melting in your hand. So another way of saying what you were saying, tent of people consuming less energy in the here and now, is basically that even if people consume the same amount of energy that they would've consumed on a, um, fiat money standard, they're getting more bang for their buck. In other words, the output is greater for the same amount of literal jewels that they expect jewels being a unit of energy. So that's another way of thinking about it, is just humanity becomes more productive, more efficient for a given amount of, um, energy input.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, I, I very much like that framing. Um, and I think that the point is that while there's sort of two tracks that Bitcoin is influencing and they're inseparable in our industry, and one is the monetary side, and that's gotten a lot of dialogue until recently, uh, and now it sort of is equal parts, the monetary side and the energy side. And I, I sort of started to think of those two as as separate, but, um, inseparable strands kind of like the dna, uh, Helix coil where both are just moving forward, but are part of the DNA of Bitcoin itself and ultimately gonna drive colossal change, uh, in our society. Um, and you know, I think you, you think about it quite simply and, and you look at your typical behavior. I mean, for sure you're gonna have to pay your rent for your food, um, you know, the basics in life, but then anything that's above those basics, I think a lot of people that have adopted Bitcoin have started to ask themselves and scratch their head and say, Do I really need to buy this now? Or would I prefer to have, you know, in four years, twice or three times the purchasing power, just given what Bitcoin's price appreciation has done, um, historically. And I just see lots of Bitcoiners, in fact, I don't know a single one that haven't elected to say, I'll, I'll hang onto my stats. Um, and I think that that is just completely underestimated the, the impact that it'll have in our society in the future.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, absolutely. And we can even take this beyond just kind of the material consequences. And I know, Kent, this is something you are big on, you phrased it slightly different than I do. Um, not to put words in your mouth, but I guess I'll just <laugh> put words in your mouth, but feel free to correct me. But, you know, you say it's kind of basically humanity will kind of spiritually evolve in this sort of thing. The way I see it is, and I spoke to Will about this as well yesterday, is a lot of the cultural ills that people will com maybe rightly complain about, at least in the West, because that's the area of the world I'm familiar with. Um, they fail to make the connection between the cultural degradation to the extent that that is real with the rise of fiat currency, especially since 1913, but especially since the 1970s. Um, because again, um, you live more for the here and now, and you, you prefer to just burn up your, your assets, your wealth, and just live for the moment rather than live a kind of more future future-oriented lifestyle and a hard money standard. So in addition to the materialist benefits of living prudently, you also live prudently, um, as a culture and as a society.
Kent Halliburton: Completely true. And I, I, you know, we've had some deep philosophical talks about this, and I know we're getting quite far a field from Bitcoin mining, but when I look around the Bitcoin community, I don't see any other community out there that seems to have the time horizon is talking about these topics. Um, and I came across a stunning example that I think is, is worth sharing, uh, that comes from our historical progress as a civilization. So if you go back to 1250, that was roughly the time that the, the Florin, the Gold Florin came into, uh, use as a, as a form of money. And that existed until roughly 1550, uh, coming out of Italy, Florence. And if you look at during that time period, that also happened to be that the time period where the Renaissance occurred, uh, so sort of moving past the, uh, the medieval dark ages and into a new level of human flourishing, I don't think that that's a coincidence.
Kent Halliburton: But then I also came across the fact that the Melon Cathedral was started in 1386, that cathedral was not actually completed for 600 years, uh, wasn't completed until 1960. And I scratch my head and look around today and say, My gosh, can I even imagine, uh, our society coming up with a project that would take six centuries to complete? And the answer is no, I can't. And so as we adopt Bitcoin as a society, um, and our time horizons increase, I, I tend to think that so will a whole bunch of, uh, features of our society, uh, transform and change. And if we, if we look to the past in these historical events where we did have hard money, we can see that it tends to, uh, extend and people tend to deepen themselves in spiritual and personal development capacity. So I think that that'll be, um, very helpful for us, uh, to evolve with. But again, we're getting pretty far from Bitcoin mining, Logan, so maybe we got a rain back end.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, of course, of course. I, I, I actually, um, I should have said in the beginning, um, this, I was planning for this to be a bit more of a free flowing conversation than usual. But having said that, yes, let's, let's reign it back in. I, but I appreciate the digression. So, um, the other point that I thought was, aw, frankly awesome in the Bitcoin Mining Council's report is that the Bitcoin network's, um, technological efficiency increased by 23% in terms of hashes per unit of energy. Um, which very much, um, brought me back to our conversation with Ethan Vera, the co-founder of Luxer Technologies, um, because he was talking about the technological innovations that are occurring in the mining space in particular. So, um, it reminded me of a few things. Uh, one thing that, um, I kind of wanna research in the future is, um, can the innovations occurring on the firmware and, uh, hardware side of Bitcoin mining, can those be, let's say, translated to other sectors of the economy?
Logan Chipkin: That's one really cool thing. If, if that would be true. That's another dagger in the hearts of Bitcoin critics, basically. Um, the second point is, it's just amazing how despite all of the anti Bitcoin propaganda, for lack of a better word, the Bitcoin network just keeps getting stronger, faster, more efficient. It's really amazing. And then the third thing is, it's really a nice, this is my, the libertarian in me coming out is the more you're just allowing the competition in this space. People just have to innovate. Um, and, uh, and then finally I'll just say, and I've said this before, but culturally, bitcoiners simply refuse to back down. And, um, I think it's very exciting. Like, it just feels like every time I read about it, something new happens and we innovate and we just can't be stopped. So with that, I'll, I'll take a breath.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, there, <laugh>, there are so many different, different, uh, areas that we can go into from that, but from, from the high level, yes, the Bitcoin network is continuing to get more efficient. Uh, I think that the stats it grew by, by 23% from 17.7 ex hash per gigawatt to, uh, per, uh, per gigawatt about, uh, almost 22 ex hash per gigawatt. So I mean, the, the efficiency's getting better. You're seeing older hardware, uh, being, being, uh, swapped out for newer hardware and more newer hardware taking, uh, place and being put up in the market. And so I think that just going off of this, I mean, you see this type of thing happen. Uh, it, it's happened throughout human history and I think that you, you're seeing it especially at a, at a high exponential rate today, uh, the human brain, you have a tough time comprehending exponentials.
Will Szamosszegi: And I was just reminded of this actually earlier this week. I, I was in New York for a tech week and I was speaking with a founder of a company that's dealing with AI and, and art and, uh, in a, with ai, and it is just absolutely astounding what these, uh, what what AI can do in terms of creating art. Uh, just like how in chess, all of a sudden you took, uh, took machine machines that had a difficult time just playing a game or getting the rule set right to beating the best chess players in the entire universe. And today, you know, the stock fish and some of these other chess ais are just better than the best players in the world like Magnus Carlson. And so reigning that back in technology gets better over time. Human ingenuity continues to improve how technology performs. And with Bitcoin mining, I, we've been seeing it with the actual nanometers on the chips.
Will Szamosszegi: So the S nine, uh, I forget when the S nine came out. It, it, the S nine I think has been in the market for about six years at this point, and there's still S nine s operating on the network. Um, but at this point, the, their, the nanometers have gone down and down from eventually nine to seven to five, and I believe that the technology is just gonna keep getting better and better over time. So that total hash rate number and total efficiency of that hash rate is just going to continue to get better. And, uh, I mean, that's what at the end of the day is making the Bitcoin network extremely resilient. It's because you have better technology, you have cheaper energy being used, and you have better hardware being put on to secure Bitcoin's protocol. So another great point, uh, in here within the mining council report.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, I think to your point, there will, uh, I think, uh, Michael Sailor had a really interesting data point, uh, where he pointed out that Bitcoin now represents 99% of all, uh, power being harnessed, uh, within the crypto industry. And that offers a hundred times the security of all the other networks combined. So as far as your, your Bitcoin being safe, you know, we have got an impenetrable shield of energy around your Bitcoin. And I think that that encrypted energy component, um, is ultimately what is causing governments to start to tremble. I mean, what is it 14 years now? And we're already seeing Bitcoin being talked about at, um, or seeing the central banks start to compete with Bitcoin, right? Uh, looking to usher and CBDs. So, you know, while when you talk about exponential growth, uh, and businesses, you know, Bitcoin definitely falls into that. And I cannot imagine what the world is gonna look like another 14 years from now as Bitcoin continues to be adopted.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, 14 years in this space is pretty mind boggling to think about. Um, uh, so before we switch to a really nice evergreen article in Bitcoin magazine, uh, called The World of Tomorrow, Seven Trends in Bitcoin Mining and Energy by Ruda Paulini. Uh, just wanted to remind the audience that if you have any comments or questions, you're more than welcome to raise your hand whether you have comments or questions about the topics we've been talking about or sa mining in general, whether that's, um, your questions about what can SaaS mining do for you? What is our philosophy as it relates to Bitcoin and energy and bitcoin mining? Uh, we're more than happy to take any questions or comments. Um, with that, let's switch gears to, uh, this article in Bitcoin magazine. And basically the article lays out, and it's only from about six weeks ago, and it's evergreen anyway, um, and it lays out, uh, a handful of ways that Bitcoin mining, the way I would put it, kind of, we would put it at SaaS mining, is the way Bitcoin mining transforms or upgrades humanities relationship with energy.
Logan Chipkin: Um, so my, I think it's hard to say which one most excites me, and I suspect it's different at least. Yeah, I suspect, uh, maybe I'm, I'm alone here, but I love the fact that, so right now, two-thirds of the energy that humanity produces goes straight to waste. And, um, that number can basically, as the article puts it, go to zero thanks to Bitcoin mining because bitcoin miners, as we know, can work from anywhere, can work at any time. And our, uh, energy source agnostic is the way I like to say it, They don't care if it's solar or gas or flared methane or waste energy from landfills, whatever. They'll, they'll just suck it up. Um, and so you think of all of that energy, as the article puts it, idle energy, like waste methane will trend towards 100% usage via Bitcoin mining. And so part of me also thinks about kind of the narrative wars that we're, we're in right now.
Logan Chipkin: And as I said to a friend, you know, that point alone, who could possibly be against turning waste into digital gold, who, like, not the environmentalists, not people on the right, not people on the left, not gold bugs, even the federal, I mean, I think you would look, well, maybe I'll be a little mean here, but like, I think to argue against turning weight energy that would've gone to waste energy into a digital asset to argue against that I think would fall on deaf ears. So that was, that's what made me most excited. But I'll, uh, well, I see we have, um, a hand raised by Husker X I hope I'm saying that correctly. Feel free to, uh, correct my, uh, jersey accent there. But, uh, what's on your mind?
Speaker 4: Oh, was this, did you ask for Husker?
Logan Chipkin: Yes, I saw you.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Sorry, I cut out there. So I didn't know who you called on, but, uh, a question I had as far as mining, do you see any companies or research going into beginning to integrate asics into, uh, like home heating or manufacturing aspects to where the equipment becomes, um, you know, zero, essentially zero cost or zero, um, zero cost of energy if you're receiving the Bitcoin in, in, um, in lieu of, you know, paying a certain rate for the energy?
Kent Halliburton: So I think you're asking the question of, uh, home Bitcoin mining and how, how it can pay for itself, not, not by using the heating as well.
Speaker 4: No, not only that. I mean, I can see, like, I could see at home would be like water heaters. Those are on small cases, but like bigger cases would be like, you know, uh, you know, heating the water for pharmaceutical manufacturing or heating the water for, you know, some other sort of process in which the heat is already, um, needed. And you get the, you know, you, you pretty much get the zero cost of heating that component in your process if somehow, uh, you know, an asics can be integrated into your manufacturing system.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, I could speak to one example of a project that, um, we're speaking to, uh, an outfit, uh, that is working with, uh, an organization, uh, in the northern part of Canada, and they've, uh, got livestock and they're looking to use Bitcoin mining, uh, to actually pump heat in and keep the, the livestock, uh, warm in the cold of winter. And I found it a pretty fascinating project because in essence what they're doing is they're saying, Okay, we've got, uh, the expense of heating, you know, what is the avoided cost of that? Uh, if we do it with Bitcoin mining and when we add on the Bitcoin that we mine put those two together, you know, it's a net positive. So the funniest part of the conversation that I had with this firm was that they actually were trying to figure out how to position this two employees and not mention Bitcoin at all, um, because of the, the politically sticky nature of Bitcoin, at least I guess within their, within their organization, it's seemed that way. But I think we're gonna see a lot more of that type of thing. You know, we see tulips being grown, uh, tomatoes being grown greenhouse applications in general. So it, it seems to me like there's a, um, a market opening up around agriculture in general and heating.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I, I think once some, an NA six that can be cooled by hydro becomes, uh, you know, well ingrained into <laugh> to some of these processes, like it could really advance a lot of things. Um, you know, because at that point, if you can heat water, um, the applications become quite numerous in manufacturing.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it, it, yeah, I think you're seeing a lot of
Kent Halliburton: Ranges of use for heat and energy are just, it's gonna be mind blowing in a few more years, uh, really hard to say exactly where it's gonna go. But at the end of the day, what's nice is that Bitcoin mining is unleashing a new incentive, uh, a for-profit incentive for entrepreneurs to figure out these opportunities.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah. Um, I've also read about a couple kind of ad hoc projects, I think in Europe, um, where they, um, harness the heat from, I think it was a, like a, a greenhouse, um, infrastructure to power their Bitcoin miners, or frankly, it might have been the other way around. But either way, um, to Kent's point, I think we're just starting to see some of these projects percolate up and as usual with innovation, um, first you see kind of one-offs and they're not cost effective for most people, but the exciting part comes with the next step after the initial innovation, which is the commercialization and then mass adoption. Um, so yeah, I think it's on the horizon, but, uh, I think, Ken, you had only said, you said, you know, just a few years. I very much agree with that for sure. So, you know, who knows? We, you know, right now kind of the emerging narrative is Bitcoin mining's, um, ability to kind of revolutionize energy for all I know. In three years we'll be talking about, uh, home appliances and asics merging, and then that'll be just taken for granted on the real estate market.
Logan Chipkin: So, uh, thank you Husker. Uh, I don't know if you have any other questions.
Speaker 4: No, I mean, that pretty much summed it up. I j i, it'll just be interesting to see how it all plays out, cuz I think that, um, you know, any application in which heat is being used mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, is, is an opportunity for, um, uh, mining.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah. And, uh, you know, this goes to something, uh, we talk about sometimes, which is basically just that the energy industry and, and bitcoin will merge into one industry. I almost said the energy industry and money will merge, but I think that's not quite true because we'll still have, even after a Bitcoin standard evolves, we'll still probably have, uh, banks and second layer financial instruments. So just to be precise, it would be Bitcoin and energy that merge, not, not, um, money and energy per se, but, um, being a bit pedantic. But yeah, it's, that's extremely exciting. Um, so with that, um, you know, if anyone else has questions, feel free otherwise, um, I'd love to hear, um, thoughts from Will and Kent about kind of what they found most interesting about this, um, Bitcoin magazine article that outlined the many ways Bitcoin mining and energy, uh, bitcoin mining upgrades, uh, are relationship with energy,
Kent Halliburton: You know, from my take, um, and, and I think this has to do with the background that I have, uh, in rooftop solar, but you know, it's, it's interesting to me to see that as Bitcoiners, we love seeing the network grow, uh, the topography of the Lightning network and just to see how much liquidity is there. And I often think that our power grid needs to be somewhat similar and, you know, there's a role for nuclear power to be some, uh, uh, to provide a, a nice steady base load, uh, of power on the grid. But I, I really like the angle of distributed generation because I think it's the distributed generation, the big data, uh, solutions that are gonna come along with that to figure out how to move power around the grid appropriately. But I think it's a distributed generation that really is gonna make our grid much more robust and lead to less like brown out blackout, uh, material.
Kent Halliburton: And, you know, no, Logan, you had teed up for, um, our reading, uh, efforts this month. So we have an internal book club, uh, where every month we read a new book as an organization and we've been reading the grid, uh, that's literally the name of the book is the Grid. Uh, and it's fascinating to read about its evolution and how just like the rest of the economy that's kind of gone, gone from like a, a command and control center based approach to being distributed out. And I see Bitcoin mining as being, you know, really the key innovation that's been needed to incent entrepreneurs to figure out the complexities of moving power around local microgrids that wind up interconnecting, uh, with larger, larger grids to ultimately make the entire, uh, grid infrastructure more robust.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, I, Kent, going off of that point, I think it's, it's pretty astounding when you just think about how everything around, uh, all of us today in society just works, right? Uh, and so that book does a, a really fantastic job of just showing, you know, how how did the grid come to be and, and how complex it was for the early entrepreneurs to go and actually build up this infrastructure, um, around all of us today. Uh, in terms of the, the Bitcoin network, one of the interesting things that we've been alluding to within this conversation, but we haven't necessarily really dove in depth on, is how the mining industry has matured over time. And so SaaS mining, we are starting in, in January of, uh, 2018. And if you go back in time and you look at the industry in 2018, you had a much less mature industry in regards to the minor sophistication around energy, the energy sector, being aware of the benefits that Bitcoin mining can produce.
Will Szamosszegi: And the conversation really hadn't been, uh, hit the main stage, I would say, in terms of people actually understanding how, uh, bitcoin mining benefits renewable energy and helps benefit stranded tower assets. And so going back to the evolution, uh, and the technology advancements over time, it's not only happened in the mining hardware, you've seen it in the energy sector. And in terms of long term predictions of how this all plays out, I think that the Bitcoin miners in a weird way, are kind of like those early, uh, entrepreneurs who are helping build out the grid that was making electricity and energy accessible to everyone in society. Uh, the, the differences, instead of you getting the ability to turn on your lights and have consistent running water and, and having heating for, for your homes, now at, at this point, you're gonna have the ability to have your entire financial system based on hard money, and you're gonna have a more robust grid and more and, and be able to live in a society that has the capability to harness much more energy, which of course increases your standard of living, but also brings up the standard of living of everyone else around the entire world.
Will Szamosszegi: And so where the question becomes, where do you think that the Bitcoin miners are gonna go? Um, and the Bitcoin miners are gonna go to the cheapest forms of energy in the world, uh, which is the waste, which is the captured net thing. If you want to think about it, you could think about it like at top of graphical map where, you know, the, the, the peaks where it's really high or where the high cost energy is, and the TROs where the energy's is su are super cheap. Uh, that's where the wasted energy is. And so if you want to know where the Bitcoin miners are gonna go in the long run, you just take a couple water and pour it on the topographical map and you'll see, uh, the miners are gonna be incentivized to go and develop the wasted energy sources or capture the waste today.
Will Szamosszegi: And, um, obviously we're very early in this. I'm not saying that you're gonna see this happening at scale within the next five years, although I think that you're gonna continue to see it, uh, increase in terms of speed. But in the long run, when you're looking at Bitcoin in the next 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, it's gonna be pretty unbelievable to think of how that's gonna change the way that the energy sector and the grids function. I mean, you, you look at how far Bitcoin has come since 2009, when it was just an idea in a white paper to where it is today, where you have the central banks being like, having it be one of the biggest threats to them in many ways, um, to, to, to how the financial system works, think about doubling that lifespan of Bitcoin or tripling it. And that's when you start thinking about why Michael Staler, for example, talks about the, uh, the virus or the cyber hornets and how the, once this idea captures your mind, it's hard for it to be stopped. Uh, we're, we're in the middle of that right now, but in the long run, going back to your initial question, Logan, I think that it's gonna be really hard to, to make predictions over the long run.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah, agreed. Um, yeah, so you had, you've both mentioned Michael Sailor. I don't know if everyone here has seen, but Michael Sailor gave a speech, well, I don't know if it was last night, but I saw it going around on YouTube last night. I highly recommend it. I think it was that, um, the Objective Society, something like that. Um, and you know, it doesn't matter how you feel about objectiveness one way or another, that's I rand's philosophy. But, um, again, his speech will give you, um, uh, tingles. It was, it was a really amazing speech. Uh, he really appreciates, um, the level of innovation that's a Toshi Nakamoto basically gave humanity, You know, a lot of people see, um, Bitcoin. Bitcoin, Oh, thank you, Kent. Yeah. So, uh, Kent just posted the, um, article that we're talking about under, uh, the Twitter spaces if anyone wants to see it.
Logan Chipkin: Um, but so a lot of people, for example, people I, I speak with kind of in my family and that sort of thing, uh, they see Bitcoin as, Oh, maybe something I'll hold and hope to make a quick buck on and then sell it later. Um, and I won't speak for Will intent, but that's not at all how I see it. I very much see it as a humanity changing technology for the better. And that's very much how Michael Sailor sees it. And I suppose that's kind of how I would define a Bitcoin maximalist. Um, so now the other, uh, point in that article that I thought was really exciting, which I hadn't thought too much about, um, and may probably Ken has, but basically the ability for bitcoin mining to render viable, um, energy production in remote locations that otherwise would've been completely unprofitable, because of course, it's costly to transmit energy across high voltage lines from wherever the energy is produced to the consumers.
Logan Chipkin: So all of a sudden we can produce energy by a volcano in the middle of a desert, and it sounds like science fiction, but bitcoin mining literally bring these, brings these things online so we could very much see in completely deserted, uh, deserts a bunch of solar panels that would've seemed ridiculous just 10 years ago, and now all of a sudden it's profitable. And who knows, even somewhere in Antarctica, there's probably some way to do it. People just haven't thought of it yet. Um, you think about, uh, I've been doing some research into, I don't know if any of you know, Nathaniel Harmon, Um, he's working on thermic, uh, Oceanic energy. And, uh, actually, and this is something, um, that I thought, um, our listener was, uh, going to ask. But anyway, um, he's not just co-locating, or his plan is not just to co-locate Bitcoin mining with energy production, but he's actually integrating Bitcoin mining into the energy production itself, such that it's one integrated cycle. So for all we know, Nathaniel's ideas of merging oceanic energy and Bitcoin mining is the first instance of really unify, literally merging Bitcoin mining and energy. So that's very exciting as well.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Nathaniel's work, and if you've not tracked his, his efforts with Otec, it's definitely worth, uh, listening to, uh, what he's up to there because the, the applications are mind blowing. And again, you know, I think Brandon quit is gonna go down on the handles of, of Bitcoin history as, uh, a real forward thinker for his, um, putting forth the idea of Bitcoin as a pioneer species, because that's, again, what's happening with Nathaniel's work. So imagine citing a barge out in the middle of the ocean and putting a pipe down, um, hundreds of feet into the, into the, uh, the ocean and the water at the bottom is much colder than at the top. And you create a cycle of, of heat transfer. That energy can be extracted for just based on the tempera temperature differential between the cold water at the bottom and the, and the warm water on the top.
Kent Halliburton: And they're gonna be looking to store that electricity and then use it as, uh, as a way to actually charge, uh, other, uh, boats that need to come by and have their electronics charged, uh, et cetera. But the entire operation is being made economical through Bitcoin mining. Uh, and it's the first time in a hundred years that this technology is actually poised to make forward progress. And if you can imagine, you know, out in the middle of the ocean, having that electricity then suddenly justifies, uh, all sorts of interesting farming applications, uh, and potentially even like civilizational, uh, settling, um, you know, where people could, could wind up, um, citing basically floating islands around this. And I think that that sort of thing where Bitcoin, um, is able to help, uh, financialize a very remote opportunity is ultimately in the very, very long run. This is my furthest vision for it.
Kent Halliburton: We'll see if it comes to pass or not. But what I see is ultimately most people live in cities for economic opportunity, but not actually, most people don't desire to live in cities. Most people, uh, over enough time want to move out, uh, to raise families. And I think that these sort of energy, um, pioneering homesteading efforts, let's say, will ultimately allow people to do that. So allow us to spread our, our social footprint a little bit wider on the earth instead of concentrating as much in cities, which will be a very different dynamic, but that, that's likely something that my grandkids will get to see, not me.
Logan Chipkin: You bring up a good point. It's funny, I saw, um, Nathaniel at some point on Twitter recently, someone was saying to him, you know, are you allowed to do these things on the ocean? And he more or less said, Who cares? Um, and you know, this just ties into the, the whole central bank thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the first place, which is like, yeah, we don't care about your monetary protocol that's screwing over basically almost everyone. We're just gonna do what we want. Um, something you said Kent, about, you know, people are probably going to move out in the cities and of course this ties into the burgeoning, um, culture of remote work. And, um, Michael Sailor in his speech last night, or I say last night, cuz that's when I watched it, um, he was saying, you know, you can work in one place and then store your wealth basically in cyberspace, which is distant, but increasingly wherever you live can be distant from let's say the headquarters of the company work for whatever it is. And then your, your wealth is, is, um, in cyberspace. And so we're just like almost literally living across space and time. It's amazing. Uh, so, and that's not even that like science fiction sounding. So Ken, I don't know, I think you said, uh, the future of your grandkids. I don't know, man. I think it's coming before you know it.
Kent Halliburton: I, I hope so. Um, that's certainly a world that I, uh, I desire to live in. Um, I, and it's hard for me to, to get my head wrapped around exponential growth to that degree. But, you know, just for everybody else that may not have come across Michael Sailor's speech yet, it is definitely worth the, um, the 15, 20 minutes of your time to watch it. I just posted it, posted it as well, um, for everybody's benefit. Uh, but I actually was quite mind blown. In fact, I'm, I'm gonna look up the quote that, um, uh, that Lynn, uh, wrote about, uh, about it. But there there was a quote where, where Michael Sailor in essence was saying that Bitcoin for the very first time, because it, it transcended the analog digital barrier and is allowing energy to channel into cyberspace. Basically, he, his claim is that for the very first time were actually putting life into the internet because energy, uh, now exists there.
Kent Halliburton: I don't know if I completely, uh, buy that, but I think that that's a fascinating concept and, and way I've been thinking about it lately is, you know, most of the internet has been designed and built up with these centralized institutions that a lot of what they do is try to protect us from spam and all sorts of, you know, messages that we just don't wanna receive. And the reason why it's been such a big problem is because there's been no cost to transact and do these things online. And that's actually been like a macro force that has put us all into silos to where we can exclude this sort of content that we don't want by these protective guardians. And what I envisage long term with Bitcoin on the internet as the value layer, um, is that people are gonna introduce more costs, uh, being born on, on Bitcoin that are going to, to limit the spam. I mean, I think all of us have probably seen the proposals to, uh, incorporate, um, you know, Twitter posts, uh, with the lightning network that way we could eliminate bots. But, you know, I think that's just like the very early edges of what could be done to sort of clear the noise outta the internet and actually force internet activity to have consequence, which is what Bitcoin brings, uh, to the internet is actual consequence through cost.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah. In his talk, uh, he, he addressed something that he, that I hadn't really thought about in depth until listening to, uh, to what he was saying there, but he drew the analogy of saying, Okay, let's say that all of a sudden all of you, your family and friends, you weren't allowed to live in the top five most developed countries in the world. Yes, that would be difficult, but your life would go on, you'd get used to it. It wouldn't be that much of a difference. Then let's imagine that you get knocked off of all of the big tech platforms, you get completely censored. You don't have Google, you don't have, uh, you, you don't have any social media, you don't have payment processors. All of a sudden these, you have these gatekeepers with unbelievable power that in the past you didn't have organizations that could, that could control this much.
Will Szamosszegi: And I think he starts off pretty early on saying, let's say that you go back, um, thousands of years and you have one crazy person that goes off on a random spree of killing, they're going to at most be able to take out something like 10 people. The one person today with the power structures that are in place could take out a hundred million people. And so with better technology, you have this important question of ethics and who can, and, and, and how structures need to be designed in order to prevent, to prevent catastrophe. And um, yeah, I think it's, it's fascinating to to think about, right? It, the world that we live in today, the structures that are in place might not be in the best, best interest of all society. And I think that looping this all back around to Bitcoin at the end of the day, having sound money, having sound truth, and having, uh, having a, a democratized, um, un uncensorable, but a, a base layer of value and truth within society is something that we haven't necessarily ever had as a civilization. And that's something that we're looking at with Bitcoin. Granted, you're looking at it in the early years, but as you continue to see it grow at this type of growth rate, it's something that's gonna spread very quickly. Cuz I think at the, at the end of the day, Bitcoin is true and represents freedom to many people.
Logan Chipkin: Yeah. The way I think about kind of the points that both of you are making is, and I know I've said this to probably both of you, is uh, basically, uh, sound money raises the cost of initiating violence against peaceful people. So this goes back to what we were talking about, about kind of, uh, uh, lowering our time preference, living in a future oriented way. It applies not just to interpersonal dynamics in terms of it'll reduce, literally reduce, uh, crime rates because crime will be, um, will pay less than, let's say earning an honest living through Bitcoin. It also applies to governments because, well, people might disagree, but you know, the whole point of governments is they initiate aggression against peaceful people, namely taxation. So it drastic, and whether you agree with that or not, Bitcoin drastically constrains the power of governments and central banks because of that.
Logan Chipkin: Um, so one of the reasons Bitcoin is such a civilization defining technology is because it's universal, almost half of all interactions involve trading money. And so if you get the money right, you're literally upgrading basically half of every single human. That's not even touching the whole second revolution that bitcoin mining brings to energy, which we've covered basically in the first half of this call. So, I don't know, <laugh>, this is why Bitcoiners like us are so excited about it. It's like, holy cow, once you learn all this, how can you not want to work on this all day every day? But I'd digress,
Kent Halliburton: Logan, I'd actually be curious to know, as we've gotten, uh, quite far ranging here in our conversation about what our perspective is on the future and what potential is for how Bitcoin can reshape our civilization, I'd be curious to know what, uh, what some of our audience's ideas are for how Bitcoin's gonna impact our lives in the future. If anybody has any, any thoughts to share on that, please go ahead and raise your hand. But, um, but otherwise, as far as a constraining force, uh, as it relates to, uh, the government, you know, i, it me a while, uh, after reading the sovereign individual to, to really digest the idea of how simple and subtle a change it is to have our value stored in a way that is impossible for us to be, uh, coerced to give it, uh, to the government to pay our taxes.
Kent Halliburton: By that I mean, you know, we can all memorize a seed phrase to store our Bitcoin value. And if all of us are using Bitcoin to store our value, that means that the ability for governments to coerce us to pay our taxes, it just totally changes. Um, they would have to go individual to individual rather than going and seizing assets, uh, in a bank account. And that subtle shift totally changes the dynamic to where in the long term, uh, I've, I've definitely bought into the argument the government is going to have to become more of service to its, its people than it is, um, able to, uh, over, uh, overshadow its people and, and wield power and force, um, and extract, uh, taxation value, uh, directly from a citizen. So I think that that they call it a, a macro political force in the sovereign individual, but I, I do see where that is going to wind up having a massive shift on our relationship with governments. And I think for the better too, I don't think there's anybody in the last couple years dealing with Covid policy that believes that their government did a great job with it. And having the ability to, or just knowing that our governments are going to be of service rather than um, uh, overlord us with their power, I think is, is a very welcome change.
Logan Chipkin: Agreed. And um, I know we only have a few minutes left, so if anyone has any questions or comments at all, um, again, whether it's about the many topics we've covered here or about SaaS mining itself, uh, feel free to raise your hand. Uh, any questions are welcome any at all
Will Szamosszegi: While we're, uh, waiting for questions here. Um, I'm not sure if Kent, you want to give some operational updates on SaaS mining?
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, good, good idea. So we are in the midst of getting our next facility off the ground. It'll be in Wisconsin. Uh, we've got about a megawatt 1.2 megawatts worth of power reserve there, fixed rate for the next three years. And we'll be energizing that in December. And while um, we have just reached capacity, uh, on our wait list for slots in facility, we're pretty well, um, certain that some folks are gonna drop off the wait list when it comes time to, to buy their mining rigs. So definitely, um, still opportunity to get in there if you were able to make a reservation. And I think even more exciting is that, you know, we've done a pretty thorough analysis. We're getting to the point of putting in the, the order on behalf of our customers for the mining rigs and we are gonna wind up going with the Hunter terra hash, um, mining unit.
Kent Halliburton: And it's because the upfront cost has just dropped so much, have been a massive change even the last six weeks. So we're gonna see those for less than $2,500. And that's just shocking to me because those same mining rigs were worth more than 10,000 at the beginning of this year. So 75% discount on mining rigs. And, you know, if you look historically, again, assuming that the, the four year cycles play out the way that they have continued to play out, then it's really the miners that invest now while the blood is in the street that wind up getting the most benefit. So definitely a fortuitous time to be getting involved with mining, although it's also the most difficult time because with price down, uh, people get scared of, of entering. But it is, it, if historical trends continue to play out, it is the best time.
Logan Chipkin: Yes. Um, thanks Kent for that, uh, operational update. Yeah. If, if you guys haven't, um, checked out our website where you can sign up to the wait list and you also see, um, our blogs and our podcast transcripts and our Twitter space transcripts, definitely check out. And Matt, I'll get to you in in just a second, I promise. Check out, uh, www.saasmining.com. Um, and you'll see everything, uh, you'll need. And with that, um, let me, uh, unmute. So, Matt, Yeah, Matt, uh, can you unmute yourself please? Or maybe, Yeah. Uh, excellent, thank you.
Speaker 5: Uh, my question is more to the, um, sa mining's, uh, integration of the machines they're gonna be getting. Um, obviously the, the website front, uh, just shows, you know, uh, welcome to SA Mining Reserve your rig. Here's the cost that's due after the wait list is after you've passed through the wait list. Um, you know, you just talked about, uh, you know, different machines and how they're, they're coming down in price. Are we going to get some more detailed information about that just when we get to the end of the wait list? And, um, you know, going forward, you know, obviously there might be opportunities to purchase additional machines. Is there gonna be, um, you know, different machines not just like, uh, a single set or type of them?
Kent Halliburton: Great questions, Matt. And if I'm remembered right, I think we actually had a phone call at one point. Um, but I, if, if you are who I think you are, then uh, thanks for being a customer and either way, uh, appreciate your, your, uh, your question. So we literally just made the decision, you know, it's getting close enough that we're needing to put in an order on behalf of our customers. So we, we went through all the numbers and as the way we see ourselves is as the customer, a advocate where we're doing all the research and heavy lifting and trying to find the best opportunity, the best price of power, uh, and aggregate all of our cu um, customer demand to acquire the best, uh, performing and priced machines. And that's, that decision was just made today. So we have an update on our website and we plan to communicate that out, uh, to all of our customers in an upcoming, uh, email. Uh, and if you're in our Telegram group, if you're on our wait list, we've got a private, uh, telegram group that you can join and, and ask us questions. But, um, to be specific, it is the, the AMP minor S 19, I'm not exactly sure the model number, but it's the hundred terra hash unit. Uh, and we're getting, um, prices that are quoted well below $2,500, but there's gonna be some shipping tax and duty on that. So we'll be updating our, our website in the next 24 hours to reflect that.
Speaker 5: Okay. And as I understand, then, the price would always fluctuate. I understood that as an early reservation was put in, I think back in June for myself. So, And then the last last thing I did want to ask, you know, I, I saw the, uh, Wisconsin Facility tour video that was done, and I was, I was really happy about that. Is this the first facility that SA Mining has or is this like the second, what's the kind of the plans on, on where they kind of wanna move from here?
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, great question. So, and I, I forgot to mention, uh, yes, you can reserve more mining rigs if that's something you wanted to do both now and at the time of actual payment and purchase. Um, but this is our next facility. I say next because in our early days we were doing, uh, some hobby farming. Um, but we have shut that down to focus, uh, primarily on this business model, which we launched at the beginning of the year, uh, March to be exact. And we are planning in to have our next facility live, uh, sometime after March next year. It sort of depends on, um, on, you know, our learning curve here with this facility and, um, and then raising some capital, uh, a series A that would happen after we get this facility off the ground. But we're planning on our second facility, uh, being be it up and live in Q2 next year.
Speaker 5: And none of these facilities are third party, is that correct? They are, they are owned or operated by SA Mining personally,
Kent Halliburton: No, that's, that's not true. So we are, uh, the middle in between. And what makes us a bit different than I think other, um, middle players is that we are, um, negotiating fixed rates for our customers and long term contracts and doing this behind the meter. And we're gonna continue to do that because it allows us to have a tighter relationship and not have to deal with the politics of grid related energy. And thankfully, our operations at, you know, one two megawatts are still fairly small. Uh, we start pushing 10 20 megawatts, which wouldn't happen until maybe the end of next year. Then we'll be looking at, at maybe changing the game up a little bit and moving downstream into operating our own facilities. But for this Wisconsin facility, uh, the dam operator, they've been, um, mining Bitcoin there for three years, and the dial operator's been overseeing the operation, he'll continue to do so for us, and he lives, uh, there on site.
Kent Halliburton: Um, and very excited about the opportunity to have somebody there 24 7 that's trained and, and able to, to care for the mining rigs as needed. And we will have, uh, a monitoring solution. Um, watching all the, the mining rigs, I think most, I impactfully, uh, if you have any worries, um, about our capabilities is the fact that we've tied our incentive to be the exact same as our customer. Meaning that we make no money in the operation, uh, unless our customers are, are receiving rewards. And that really can't be underestimated because we have a direct incentive to ensure that your mining rig is up and operational as long as possible because of the way that the mining rewards are, are split. So we receive, uh, it's the only way that we make money in our business model is, uh, 85% of the mining rewards go to our customers and 15% go to our wallet. We never touch the Bitcoin directly. It's the mining pool itself that separates those rewards into the two respective wallets. Uh, but that alignment of incentives is unique and we are thus far in the market, the only one that's taken this approach to align incentives with our customers.
Logan Chipkin: Thanks for your questions, Matt. Um, does anyone else have any questions or comments? Thank you. Bit 49. Uh, yeah, so wrapping up, um, yeah, as Kent was mentioning, um, if you join the wait list, you also get the benefit of joining our v i p telegram group where we have a lot of fun. Uh, to be honest, it's a lot like this, uh, conversation where not only do we talk about kind of bitcoin and mining and energy, but we talk about current events and also customers have direct access to our executive team, including Will and Kent with any questions and they answer, uh, pretty responsibly, um, responsibly, I should say. Uh, so yeah, definitely. Um, you're welcome to join our wait list and you'll join the Telegram group and you'll have direct access. Um, I just wanna say before wrapping up, thank you to everyone who's joined.
Logan Chipkin: Thank you to everyone who's listened, thanks to Kent and Will for participating. Uh, next week's Twitter spaces will be with Lara Vidalia of Ledger Prime. They deal with a lot of the kind of financial side of, uh, trading Bitcoin. So very different than our usual conversation about kind of bitcoin maximalism and those sort of things. Um, so we'll see a different side of it. Uh, there's a very good chance she kind of has a different, uh, take. Uh, she might not be a Bitcoin maxi per se, but that's perfectly okay. Of course. Uh, and we hope to see you there and you're always welcome to DM us. Feel free to reach out if you have, uh, guest ideas or if you have any other questions about Sasin itself. Again, our doors are always open. All of our dms are open. Uh, so thank you very much and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
Kent Halliburton: Yeah, thanks for the hosting, uh, abilities there, Logan. Really appreciate you holding space for us.
Will Szamosszegi: Yeah, thanks. This was a lot of fun. I I always look forward to, to the 3:30 PM Twitter spaces with you, Logan <laugh>.
Logan Chipkin: The feeling is very much mutual. Thank you. Thank you all. Take care. Bye.
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