Sazmining Podcast Episode 13: Yael Tamar on Tokens and Tokenization

Synopsis: In this episode of The Sazmining Podcast, Will speaks with Yael Tamar, CMO and Partner at SolidBlock. They discuss tokenization, security tokens, the differences between utility tokens and security tokens, and more.

Will Szamosszegi (00:00:04):

Welcome to the SA mining podcast at SA mining, we are bringing you into conversations with today's industry leaders and blockchain and cryptocurrency. Our goal with this podcast is to improve the understanding and adoption of blockchain and cryptocurrency by giving you an insider's look at what's being built and inform predictions on what the future holds gal tomorrow is the CMO and partner at solid block, a new fundraising vehicle offering a compliant global platform for the issuance and trade of digital securities backed by real estate and other assets. Y L is a financial strategist speaker advisor, and mentor with over a decade of experience as well as a regional co-chair at the foundation for international blockchain real estate expertise. Welcome to the podcast, Yale.

Yael Tamar (00:00:58):

Thanks William. Thank you for having me.

Will Szamosszegi (00:01:01):

Of course, I've been really excited for this conversation. All the stuff that you guys have been doing with solid block is incredible.

Yael Tamar (00:01:09):

Thank you.

Will Szamosszegi (00:01:10):

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about just the journey of what star starting solid block was actually like and then moving forward to where it is today?

Yael Tamar (00:01:21):

Sure. So solid block started in 2018 when we had, you know, an era of, uh, kind of this industry that gave a lot of hope and failed. And I'm talking about the ICOs, um, you know, everybody, uh, thought this was the way that companies are going to raise money. And, uh, this was the way that, you know, uh, anybody with a dream, um, and a community could monetize the community and create something really cool. So, uh, unfortunately there was no delivery, no execution and lack of planning for the time when regulators are gonna get a gist of what's happening. So, uh, at that time, you know, we, uh, uh, understood that we need to work with the industry, with the regulators, with the financial institutions and, and really solve, uh, solve a real need. Right. Um, and utilizing know blockchain is going to be utilized for raising funds.

Yael Tamar (00:02:23):

It's going to be through, um, compliant channels and the security, uh, however, you know, companies that are not able to raise funds through traditional methods of BCS or, uh, you know, uh, private equity and so on, so forth, uh, probably not gonna be able to use funds in any way, you know, so we have to think about assets that are really, you know, struggling and are highly liquid, um, that are easy to evaluate and are easy to, uh, uh, to, to really, you know, appraise and understand. And, and, and, and these assets are real estate, commodities, uh, you know, energy, uh, anything that relates to, let's say like a real world asset. So that's basically us leading, you know, our background leading up to understanding the potential and, and, uh, and listing it on our LinkedIn profile. Right. My, my co-founder UAL, um, you know, he basically got into the STOs in, in 2018 and, uh, lo and behold, uh, he got a contact from the Aspen, uh, St Regis hotel, which was tokenizing in 2018.

Yael Tamar (00:03:35):

And, uh, you know, uh, the, the quickly the, this, this deal closed fairly quickly and, uh, solid block was creating a tech platform for that deal. And I'll explain in detail a little bit about that deal now very quickly about our personal backgrounds, uh, both UAL and I have been dreaming of, uh, being investors specifically real real estate investors. For many years, I have a finance background I've been helping other people invest money with, uh, private equity, um, you know, kinds of accelerators, startups, um, uh, pension funds, IPOs, you know, I worked on, on a lot of different financial products, and yet wasn't able to reach real estate deals, you know, uh, um, having, you know, all these challenges in, in becoming an investor, uh, same, same, same for my partner Yuval who's been in it, but, you know, has always been interested in finance. So we kind of, uh, went on solving our personal, uh, challenge there with real estate. And, um, after we'd done the Aspen deal, which raised 18 million on our, on our platform, um, and, uh, for the renovation of the property and issued the, the first security token for a commercial asset, we went on to develop, uh, the platform and, uh, you know, do several more projects and, uh, uh, kind of create this new, um, platform that's going to be a bridge and a window into defi decentralized finance and, uh, new wave of digital structured product.

Will Szamosszegi (00:05:01):

Yeah. Well, congrats with that. And because I do remember that whole, it, it was almost like what everyone was talking about. Everyone was talking about the possibility of tokenization and how security tokens were going to change the world. And I think that the concept behind security tokens is really transformative when you have an understanding of how illiquid some of these assets really are. And when you understand how this liquidity premium could really change, who can invest in what and how fluid that process is. But I know that we'll, we'll dive into all of that. So, uh, to maybe to start, could you talk a little bit about tokenization and how that works for security tokens?

Yael Tamar (00:05:43):

Absolutely. Tokenization is a function or a combination of two things, uh, digitization and securitization. So let's start actually with securitization. Securitization is nothing new. Anybody from the financial industry understands that you can take any asset and, and, uh, break it down into parts, right? So you create an SPV, a special purpose vehicle, a corporation, uh, which holds the asset. You break it down to parts and you sell them to investors. So these parts are called securities and they come in two types, equity or debt equity means that you are actually holding a piece of the asset. And debt means that you are lending money to the owner of the asset to, uh, improve the business in some way, and then you're gonna be paid interest, and then you're gonna be paid, you know, the whole, uh, uh, bond, uh, back at a certain time. Right?

Yael Tamar (00:06:35):

So, uh, that's, uh, that's nothing new. That's been done for many, many years, right. Decades. Now, what, what happened to the industry in 2012 was the jobs act. The jobs act basically said that we can, uh, now investors can, can buy the securities and actually trade them. So accredited investors can, uh, uh, who bought securities, uh, can trade them on. What's called an ATS automated trading system, uh, which is a special, uh, license for broker dealer. And, uh, you don't have to, uh, go to a, uh, to a, an exchange. You don't have to go to a licensed exchange like NASDAQ and, or, uh, New York stock exchange. For example, you can find an ATS like T zero, uh, and, and, uh, trade your product there. So that's one thing that happened. Uh, the second thing that happened around the same time from 2010 was Bitcoin and Bitcoin is the first cryptocurrency that was on the platform, uh, of, of blockchain, right?

Yael Tamar (00:07:41):

So essentially blockchain is a, is a, a decentralized literature technology that enables transfers of assets, right? Uh, assets or information, and an immutable decentralized matter. Uh, and that created a revolution, the combination of those things, the jobs act of 2012, that enabled us to, to compliantly trade private products and the technology that allows you to, to trade private private products. They came together right, and created, um, uh, tokenization essentially. So, uh, so, uh, to, you know, to make a long story short, uh, when we are tokenizing an asset, we're issuing a security, but the security is not a paper security, your holding in a company when you invest is not sitting on some Excel database, but instead it's sitting on a blockchain, blockchain provides a cap table, a secure and immutable cap table that, that basically keeps track of the investors coming in and out of the asset when they're being treated.

Yael Tamar (00:08:43):

So that's what tokenization is. And the benefits are obvious. You can, uh, manage many more investors, thereby you lower the investment thresholds when you invest in real estate. Usually you need hundreds of thousands of dollars. If not millions, if you wanna hold an asset, like, like Aspen, like St. Regis, nobody could invest in a hotel. Uh, no private investors could invest in, in the hotel of that size until that deal. So that's number one, number two liquidity, of course, nobody was able to trade pieces of hotels yet, you know, and yet, uh, last week it was listed on C zero and, and, uh, over, over 150, 200 people have traded the assets so far. And, uh, and of course now you can also do global transactions, right. You're opening the market up to a lot more people.

Will Szamosszegi (00:09:28):

Yeah. Well said that really summed everything up, uh, really well and comparing, comparing utility tokens to security tokens, what you just outlined was house a security token functions. Right. Is there anything that you'd wanna just speak about regarding the difference between a utility token and a security token?

Yael Tamar (00:09:49):

So, utility token really is a, um, is using a Kickstarter model to raise funds for future products that communities want that's, that's what it was supposed to be about. And I think that they do have, um, their place. And, uh, I personally, as an economist was super excited about, about these tokens, because it really enables a lot of different models. And I think we're still gonna see them in payments and things like, you know, uh, for example, rent payments, or, uh, anything that, that Mo motivates users to, to do certain behaviors, right? If you, if you want your tenants, for example, to, um, to, to somehow, uh, use the space in a, in a way you want, right. Ke uh, say, uh, save the space or clean the space where they live, you can encourage them with the utility tokens, for example, and, and then they can use them to buy certain services or convert them to security tokens at some point, right.

Yael Tamar (00:10:48):

So they can own the asset. So this is an example of, of a utility token and, and, uh, the problem with utility tokens was that they were used for fundraising. They probably should never be used for fundraising for equity companies. Uh, they could be successfully used, like I said, in the Kickstarter model, right. Uh, any, any product that's out there that's being produced, physical product, uh, that, that you're supposed to get at the end of the day in, in the mail, uh, or, you know, that that would be a good example of utility token. Uh, if you are fundraising utility token with the goal of profiting from, uh, from that raise, right? Anybody who's investing in it is expecting to, uh, benefit from the value increase of utility token that doesn't pass, what's called the dewy test. And that automatically makes the token security token. So it's no, it's not compliant. So I wouldn't advise anybody to raise money from utility tokens anymore, but I would advise technologists to, you know, to look into different, uh, uh, use cases of utility tokens.

Will Szamosszegi (00:11:51):

Yeah, definitely. Cuz that's one of the, the things that people talk about tokenization and there is that clear difference when we were seeing that huge boom and bust of the tokens on the ICOs, initial coin offerings in 2017, that was really surrounding exactly what you said. These companies that were having a token represent access to a particular service, but they were using the token as a fundraising vehicle. And that's why the S E C really came in and cracked down.

Yael Tamar (00:12:19):

Yeah. Good for them too, you know? Um, good for them too. And also they were right. If you look at all the companies that raised almost none of them came up with, uh, any, any significant products, right. There's really can count on the number of my, of, uh, uh, the fingers of my hand, the companies that really created anything and that those were mainly exchanges and some of them are really successful or maybe some deep tech platforms. Uh there're no, obviously there's no consumer apps that there are still around. And, um, and, and yeah, 99% of these companies, you know, don't even have any code on, on GitHub, um, which is a platform where, where companies list, um, their code, uh, on open source. So, so yeah, so they were right. You know, so, uh, it's uh, uh, it was all, it was all a scam <laugh>. Yeah. But unfortunately, you know, it's unfortunate once you give a loophole to, you know, to the industry and it's happened before with many things, blockchain is no exception, you know, uh, um, any new technology like the internet, the internet is the biggest, you know, community of scammers. You can, you can find, obviously, you know, how many emails did you get from a Nigerian prince this month? So, you know, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be using the internet

Will Szamosszegi (00:13:39):

Many <laugh>

Yael Tamar (00:13:40):

<laugh>. Yeah,

Will Szamosszegi (00:13:42):

Yeah. It's, it's also one of those things where, I mean, you brought up the example of the internet, it, there, it's not like we're going to not utilize the internet or we should start banning the internet because there are bad people and scammers that use it. Just how, with blockchain, for example, you guys come up with a great use case for blockchain technology. There's value to be used, seen in that. And then there are certain people that are still talking about it as if we're in like 20 12, 20 13, and talking about some of the scams that are happening, I think good people are gonna build good things and do amazing things with the technology. And then bad people are always gonna be bad, doing certain things in whatever technology they're able to get their hands on. So, yeah,

Yael Tamar (00:14:25):

Well, you know, uh, uh, most banks out there, I think probably the majority of the banks now are using blockchain for, um, transfers, right. Especially international transfers. And, uh, and on the other end, there's people who say, you know, uh, we shouldn't use 5g. So, um, there there's, there's all kinds of, uh, there, there are all kinds of people out there. And, and the good thing is that in business, you always kind of evaluate opportunity, um, against the, uh, you know, against many different, um, criteria and, uh, you know, blockchain is just the technology. It's just the technology that happens to be the best technology for doing any sort of transactions, um, you know, securely. And, uh, the internet, you know, right now is obviously used by everybody and anybody. And you can't, uh, think about any applications except maybe NASA or, or CIA where maybe they have something else that we don't know about. Uh, so I think blockchain is gonna be as wide widespread as, uh, as the internet and a few years.

Will Szamosszegi (00:15:31):

Yeah. And I also love the way that you were talking about the potential future of some of these tokens. I mean, you gave the example of utility tokens being used potentially for rent in the future. Is that something that you're, you've seen a company that's working on that, or is that just something that you came up with? The idea, just seeing the potential of using blockchain.

Yael Tamar (00:15:53):

I've seen quite a few companies working on that actually, uh, I don't know which ones have survived, but there there's some non blockchain applications as well that are tackling, um, tackling this issue. And, uh, in terms of rent in general, it's super outdated in the us and many other countries where you're still operating with checks, for example, and you can't evict tenants, um, that don't pay there's all kinds of protections. So you could use smart contracts on blockchain to really sort that out. I think it's gonna take quite a bit of time for consumer applications like that to happen. And in some of our projects, we're, we're actually, we're discussing, uh, implementing utility tokens. We, uh, for the, for the rental payment and, uh, incentivizing tenants. Um, so, you know, you may see that in our projects, in the future, uh, we are working, uh, with a few projects in the affordable, uh, home space. Um, so it's kind of a, a place that's close to my heart. And, uh, I think that's some, a place where we can make a lot of difference. Um, so I, so I think in specifically in those projects, it could be, uh, of really good use where, you know, tenants care and they would be, you know, excited to, to be even a part of a part of something, uh, you know, a shareholder in, in a space where they live and, uh, care about it much more.

Will Szamosszegi (00:17:15):

Yeah, definitely. And one of the things that I also wanted to dive into Deon, uh, surrounding security tokens, we could also run the thought experiment for utility tokens if we want afterwards, but let's say I'm, I want a equity in our company, right? So for example, SA mining, if we wanted to go about tokenizing equity, how would we go about doing that through solid block? What, what's the step by step process of what that would look like from our end and what you guys would be doing behind the scenes?

Yael Tamar (00:17:51):

So for you to tokenize, uh, your company, your equity, we would create an SPV, always create another entity that, that then will have the right to buy a part of your company. We'd established valuation, you know, may we'll go to ston young or some other, uh, company that will establish the valuation. And, uh, that's why, by the way, it's not easy to do this for companies that are early stage where evaluation's really unclear. Um, so, uh, we would do, we, we would do that. And then, um, we would have to create like what's called a PPM private placement memorandum. It's a legal document. It's kind of like a white paper, but with a very clear format. And, um, and that P with that PPM, we would, we would notify the SCC. We're doing the offering. We would go and register. What's called the reg D 5 0 6 C exemption offering.

Yael Tamar (00:18:51):

And, uh, after that, we're able to, uh, you, as the issuer, uh, are able to go and market, um, this offering in an unlimited way that that's, that's what I talked about with the job deck. You can go out and market and, but you can only raise from accredited investors. You can also only market to accredit investors. That's why you usually do that through a broker dealer, um, that has access to accredited investors. And, um, you would, uh, uh, every time you take money, your responsibility, it is your responsibility to check whether these investors are accredited. And I'll go into the definition of a credit investor in a minute. You also have to check K Y, C and AML on of every investor. Um, and because if the SCC go goes after you, at the end of the day, you have to have everything documented. And that's why I would advise to use third parties, uh, to do that now, uh, third parties that have KYC, AML, accreditation, uh, automated and, you know, licensed. Uh, so we're using north capital. It's our partner on the compliance side. It's, it's a broker dealer and partner on compliance side. Now you could use obviously a platform like solid blocks, so you don't have to create everything from scratch. <laugh> all the sounds

Will Szamosszegi (00:20:11):

Like a lot, if you tried to do it on your own <laugh>

Yael Tamar (00:20:14):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also we have this, the expertise, cause we've done this before and it's, I would not advise somebody to just, uh, uh, you know, go and repeat this process. We've done this before with incredible legal teams with, uh, you know, crazy amount of resources thinking about the Marriott's St. Regis, uh, hotel, you know, uh, so we were lucky in that sense that we didn't, you know, uh, that we started with the project of that size. So we were able to learn from the best, right? So, uh, compliance and taxation and all of that. Um, so then once you offer it to investors and investors agree to, to transfer the funds, uh, you would again use a financial institution, an escrow agent to hold the funds for you, because you're not able to use these funds until you reach what's called a soft cap.

Yael Tamar (00:21:02):

Soft cap is the minimum amount of investment that you need to raise to move forward with this project. And then you have a hard cap which may be higher than the soft gap. You know, it's a, what I, what I would like to have. So once you reach the soft gap, you're able to take the money out of the escrow and the distribute, the security tokens to investors, and that, you know, obviously the distribution that happens digitally through a platform like solid block, ideally providing, uh, custody for these tokens. So that, that the investors don't have to deal with wallets and stuff like that. So the platform creates a wallet every time an investor is onboarded and that they don't even know that they have a wallet. They don't have to have a key to the wallet. Uh, you know, the, the it's secure with, uh, with, with a platform and then within, um, uh, unfortunately in the us, there's a one year lockup between the issuance and the trade. So investors are gonna have to wait for one year to start trading. At that point, they can trade over the counter on platforms like solid block, or, um, uh, these tokens are likely going to be listed on one of the exchanges, like T zero. And, um, and, uh, then they'll be able to, to trade on the exchange

Will Szamosszegi (00:22:15):

And do the tokens do as a company, do you have to pay to get listed on one of these exchanges, like T zero or any other type of security token exchange?

Yael Tamar (00:22:27):

Yes, absolutely. You definitely have to be paid to, to get listed. And then you have, you know, some maintenance fees, uh, throughout, or, or sometimes minimum trading thresholds. I think that the industry is going to improve tremendously, and then you're gonna have a lot of players, so it's gonna become competitive and market makers and underwriters. So I expect this industry to blow up and not as they predicted initially. And I'll tell you why, uh, I mean, in 2018 or 2019, the predictions were, you know, that the there's gonna be at least, uh, I think in 2019, maybe 10 billion tokenized, which wasn't, I mean, it wasn't that outrageous. I mean, in reality that we're around maybe one to 2 billion, right? So they, they, they, they were mistaken by about a 10th, right? So, uh, or, or times 10, um, and the reason why, and still wasn't so much, right, the ICO industry was, was, um, higher, but that's due to like two huge project that brought in 4 billion.

Yael Tamar (00:23:33):

Um, so you, you know, one to 2 billion is not so bad for the first year in any case, but really the regulation has just caught up with itself, like in the us, thankfully we had the regulation ready in Europe. They just came out with the regulation last year. You know, some clarity of what's legal and what's not in Europe. Also crowd funding is much more advanced than in the us, in, in the us. They've had a plan to increase the crowd funding threshold from 1 million to 5 million for a while. And, and also, um, now the current SCC commissioner who I truly admire in love, like she, um, has, uh, plans to improve or to change the definition of the accredited investor. And I wanted to touch up on that. So, uh, the government basically says that you can only invest in these highly risk insecurities if you, if you're, if you, if you earn a certain, uh, amount of income, which is, uh, I think $250,000 for individual and maybe 300,000 per family for the past two consecutive years, or if you earn certain, if you have a certain amount, uh, of assets other than your primary residents and, and that's a few million.

Yael Tamar (00:24:49):

Um, so, so that's very interesting, cuz you can also go to a casino and then blow your money there and, and you can also go to a P2P lender and, and, and we know that's a huge industry and payday loans and all of that and that's okay. Right. And the minute it comes to

Will Szamosszegi (00:25:09):

That is crazy when you put it like that, that really is. I never even thought about it like that, but just stacking 'em up side by side, that it's so weird that that law exists.

Yael Tamar (00:25:18):

I know. Right. So a lot of people are, you know, who are into conspiracy theories are saying that, okay. So the government's trying to limit us from, uh, from really getting to the products that the rich are investing in. And we're, you know, um, we are left with mutual funds and pension funds and other like low performing assets. Um, so in this case, you know, I'm somewhere in the middle. I think that it's still a, a, a goal of the government to protect residents and citizens, because I think that in the absence of such a law, we'd see what's happening with the ICOs right. People taking advantage of somebody and obviously the SCC or the government doesn't have the capacity to do, uh, so much legal work and, and ch you know, and, and so much enforcing. Right. So, um, that's why they said, okay, go to credit investors.

Yael Tamar (00:26:13):

They're, they're more sophisticated. They can, they can smell, you know, they, they can, they can smell, uh, uh, the projects that are not, they're not gonna perform. Um, so what the SCC is trying to do right now, sec, CC is a securities exchange commission that governs the, uh, uh, all the, all the compliance regulation. Uh, they're trying to update the, the rule for credit investors. So anybody who passed the test like a series seven, obviously understands what they're doing in finance. And, and so now they, they, they will be able to, to invest, um, as accredited investors. And I think that's fantastic because it encourages financial education and, and, and will, will help help us all. And because that's the first thing that, that, that people need to do is, is really good financial education. And that's why it was crazy to me cuz I've been working in finance industry for, you know, several decades and I, I couldn't invest in, in these assets.

Yael Tamar (00:27:09):

Um, so that's, that's pretty insane. Right. Um, so yeah, cuz me specifically, I was just blowing all my money on, on startups and, and, and creating things and investing and, and creating technologies for many, many years. Um, so, um, that's, that's basically where we stand with, uh, with that, with what you would have to do as a company. Now, the, we, we, it, it would be it make us to discuss, you know, whether it makes sense for you guys to do it cuz uh, you know, a liquidity premium is fantastic, but being, um, uh, and a company you need to generate sufficient amount of transparency for people to be trading your asset, right with real estate, you have milestones, you have, you know, renovation finished and new tenant and so on and so forth. So, so I, we, we we're able to trade, uh, what I like about the mining industry specifically is the equipment and the fact that it's tangible in a way, right? So, uh, and also there's electricity costs and like let's say a mining company would, uh, is starting operations and then in a specific country, you know, then you have, you have some interesting things happening and you have really, uh, as far as evaluation's concerned, if you are dealing, if your company is dealing with hardware specifically, I think, I think actually tokenization could be, uh, a, a great path, uh, for, for such a company.

Will Szamosszegi (00:28:35):

Yeah. Well, it's, it caught my attention initially. I started looking into it, but this was back when the, our, I would say the infrastructure that was available to a company that was evaluating a security token offering was in its earlier stages. So it, it just seemed kind of difficult from a token management perspective and just keeping everything straight. I just thought it would probably be easier to just go through the traditional fundraising route and then maybe wait a few years and the company would grow and then the overall space would grow. And then yeah, it would be a decision of going IPO or going, uh, for PO potentially a security token offering something like that.

Yael Tamar (00:29:16):

Right. So, so the good thing about the security token space is that you don't have heavy, heavy reporting requirement like you do with the I P O you really have to report to your investors on, you know, the usual financial reports, audited financial reports, uh, from our companies, from our clients, we're asking for a quarterly report on evaluating all of your, all of your assets. And, uh, and then you also update your investors on like a daily or weekly basis, whatever you want, like if anything special happens. Um, so, so that's, that's basically, it, there's not much in terms of a requirement. Um, so, you know, I think be you being in this industry, uh, is, is actually a, a really good pathway to go out and invest, um, and, and not invest, but, but to create also partnerships, you know, you can, you can, you can have partners buy into the security token and, uh, and also you can finance, uh, maybe you don't have to do a raise for your company's equity. You can finance new operations. And that's basically what they were trying to do with utility tokens initially. But if you let's say you want to expand to a new market and, and buy equipment there, um, you can, you know, you can, we can raise funds with security tokens. Absolutely.

Will Szamosszegi (00:30:40):

Yeah. It's fascinating

Yael Tamar (00:30:41):

Investors. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, and then you can actually ask for the partners, the local partners that you have in that country, uh, to buy in these partners, to buy in, into the security it's gonna, it's actually a much easier structure than having them buy into an actual SPV and hold an actual SPV. And for them having this liquidity premium is fantastic.

Will Szamosszegi (00:31:03):

Yeah. So you're you think that it's, it's actually easier for them to buy into a tokenized SPV rather than go and fund a traditional, uh, go, go a traditional funding path through an SPV for, for what reasons again, like what would those main reasons be? Like one, you mentioned the liquidity premium.

Yael Tamar (00:31:23):

Yeah. Also global raise. Right. So, yeah. Um, even now when let's say you have, let's say you want to expand your mining business into Russia and, uh, and then you have a partner in Switzerland that wants to co-invest in that business with you. So you would probably create some sort of an SPV and the Caman that's going to hold a company in Russia that was actually going to hold the business. So, so you're gonna have a lot of lawyers here, um, in <laugh> in any case, uh, when you, when, when you create this, this security token, and let's say, you wanna have not one investor, if you have one investor, you probably are not gonna token organize, but let's say that you have a lot of people who are interested in and then, uh, you know, using this platform for mining, right? So mining come, other companies, uh, that are using this, you can ask them to buy in. And then, you know, they don't know anything about legal stuff and how to structure things and taxes and so on, so forth. So it's easier for them to buy securities. So, and also the securities are liquid. So as soon as they go up in value, they can, they can sell. So they don't necessarily

Will Szamosszegi (00:32:40):

Wanna, that's actually very, very, and a very interesting point, particularly for miners because offloading hardware and selling hardware can be a pain, uh, can just be a huge pain, you know? So having that ability to sell that equity easily on a tradeable platform through a security token is something that I think would be really useful for minors.

Yael Tamar (00:33:04):

Yeah, for sure. I think, I think the minors are definitely gonna, you know, this is a new model also for, for anybody involved in mining. I mean, we can, we can create something interesting. Yeah. I mean, I just, you know, it just brainstorming here <laugh> yeah. But if we actually had a minute to sit down and think it through, imagine what we could come up with.

Will Szamosszegi (00:33:22):

Yeah. Well, I've, I've been thinking about this for like a little while now. Um, cuz also another thing that I, that just, I'm not sure I want to get your opinion on this and see if this is something that you think would actually work. Um, if someone were to raise a mining fund that was specific to invest in different mining projects and then just tokenize the fund through some company that is, you know, created in the Caymans and then you're able to do a global raise in a compliant way through that entity. That's something that that's possible.

Yael Tamar (00:34:00):

That is the best use case actually. Right? Yeah. So you have minors anywhere everywhere. Right. And uh, um, the only caveat here is that every jurisdiction has its own requirements, right? So, uh, with solid block, we have partners almost anywhere that that allow you to do compliant. Raise if these investors are not accredited investors, uh, a lot of them will be cuz they probably, you know, have, uh, have this mining business, right. They can, they can use a business also, uh, if not an individual, but if they're not accredited, we can still find a way to activate our crowdfunding partners and, and have them invest. So we'll find a way for them to invest, but it definitely the fund fundraising costs money. Right. So we're trying to minimize these expenses, but uh, um, you know, it's gonna take us some time to create kind of this global efficient vehicle.

Yael Tamar (00:34:59):

Um, so I'd say I would, I would focus on three of four jurisdictions, let's say not all 180 countries in the world. <laugh> but let's say we'll focus on the EU cuz that's, that's a great EU is a great jurisdiction cuz a lot of people, a lot of countries, but yet passport laws. It's perfect. Uh, unfortunately the UK came out and it's so much uncertainty there. Um, so, so we would look at the EU, maybe the United States, um, Mexico, maybe, or maybe some country in, in south America. Um, and uh, Singapore, Hong Kong, let's say China, unfortunately it's illegal to, to raise money with security tokens in China.

Will Szamosszegi (00:35:42):

Really? I did not know that.

Yael Tamar (00:35:45):

Yes. So, but thankfully most of the Chinese investors have their money somewhere in Singapore or Hong Kong. So, um, and have advisor, okay, this is nothing new, right? It's not, it's not, not only for security token industry and they have, uh, advisors, uh, finished advisors that are acting on their behalf. So, so there's a loophole in that way.

Will Szamosszegi (00:36:09):

Yeah. And how long are these fund is the full process where if someone goes and they say, I wanna, I want to, for example, do that fund idea or do some other tokenization of, of some sort of asset. How long is that process on average from start to finish?

Yael Tamar (00:36:30):

So you probably need around two months to create this PPM private place memorandum, which is really like a business plan. So there's a lot of thought put into it. Although if you come to me with a ready, ready business plan, will it'll take us a week or two con to convert it into a PPM. Um, you know, so, so then we'll have to do some technical onboarding, uh, and strategizing around where we, where we're gonna raise. Um, and then depending on whether or not you have distribution partners, right? So if we, if we, if we need to also find networks or distribution partners, um, that's the most important thing like the key in every project is of course the marketing, if, uh, if you have this community. So it's the same thing as, as with the ICO, if you have a community that trusts you and your ability to make money, uh, they're gonna jump on this opportunity.

Yael Tamar (00:37:26):

Then I would say SEO is a fantastic, fantastic tool for you, right? So if you do not have such community, it's not a panacea, it's not a, it's not a, some, it's not a magic pill. You can't, you know, you're not gonna be able to, uh, generate so much interest just by having an, an STO. So, uh, suppose that you have this network in a community, um, it'll take around two months to set up maybe less. And then, uh, it'll take another few months to raise, right? Depending on how, how, uh, a connected you are.

Will Szamosszegi (00:38:01):

Wow. That is very interesting. So this is something that if a company wants to do, they like the overall amount of time that it takes really isn't, that's almost like a normal fundraiser, uh, pretty much yeah. Going from nothing to actually getting the capital and the door. Yeah. How much does it cost to get started with something like this? Is, is it high upfront costs or is it something where after the raise is done, a portion of the capital raised is then distributed to the parties that helped with raising that capital. Like where is the money I guess yeah. Coming

Yael Tamar (00:38:39):

Out. So I recommend to raise, I recommend to raise at least 5 million. Um, so the high upfront costs, um, are generally concerning the legal part, right? Cause we have to do the PPM and you know, legal is never cheap and for good reason, right? Because you want to be compliant and you don't wanna go to jail. So, um, there is, uh, a cost to the legal, there are legal fees, like 30 to $50,000. And um, the technical fees are, are fairly low and uh, you know, a few other, uh, 10 to $20,000, let's say, and you know, the, and then basically the rest is marketing. If you have your, your network set up and everything is great, then you don't need to necessarily pay the broker dealers, which also take upfront fees. Um, and then you can go into straight into distribution and, you know, uh, raise without having to invest a lot of money, which is really the key. Right. So the key, if you don't have such networks, then you're gonna have to spend, uh, a lot more money on, on distribution.

Will Szamosszegi (00:39:48):

Okay. Yeah. So there's

Yael Tamar (00:39:50):

Also compliance fees, but usually those are taken from, and most of them are taken from the raise itself. Every investor has to undergo K Y C AML accreditation. So on there's some escrow, uh, escrow agency fees as well, you know, another 10, $20,000. So we are looking at under $100,000 basically. Um, if you're savvy with your network

Will Szamosszegi (00:40:12):

And then are there success fees that the broker dealers are taking after the capital comes in the door? Yeah. So you'd want, like, assuming that you come to the table with everything, you can expect it under a hundred K and then aside from that, whatever the success fee is. Yeah.

Yael Tamar (00:40:28):

Yeah. Well, if you're engaging the broker dealers to distribute, then yes, you're expecting to pay five to 7% in success fee. If you're engaging the broker dealer just to provide compliance, then you're not paying, uh, any success fee. You're just paying, you know, uh, some sort of a set fee per, um, per investor. Right. So then you have a companies like solid blog where we also have a very small origination fee, um, just, you know, similar to a transaction fee that you would incur with like credit card or PayPal or something like that.

Will Szamosszegi (00:41:00):

Yeah. And this next question, I, it really does end up depending on the quality of the companies that are going and trying to raise the capital. But if you were to just ballpark the success rate of companies that have attempted these raises and met that soft cap, so maybe not reaching the full amount, but yeah. Made it to their soft cap and been able to keep the money and move forward with the project. Uh, what would you estimate that number is around?

Yael Tamar (00:41:32):

So actually the <laugh> the thing is that we don't hear about failed projects so much, um, in this industry yet. Right. So, um, most of the projects that I've seen have succeeded in raising 20 to 50 million, those are like funds or real estate assets. I've seen some smaller raises three to 5 million on different platforms. So I've seen a lot of successes here and I'm sure there've been failures, but we haven't heard about them so much. And there was one public failure of a WeWork asset about a year ago. And, uh, it's been attributed to the fact that we, that WeWork was going down in general. So they kind of pulled it, pulled it at the last minute. So, you know, but so far I haven't seen a lot of field projects because a lot of, because companies are not, uh, willing to undergo through all of this trouble and invest so much money and so much effort into the legal, um, process without having, you know, thought through distribution partners, for example. So, uh, yeah, so, so that's why I think that in this case, you know, it's a very serious offering, serious companies. And I think just doing an STO is also signaling, uh, that the company and the venture is serious.

Will Szamosszegi (00:42:48):

Yeah. So I guess you haven't seen many early stage companies attempt a security token or anything like that. These are companies that have their funding partners. They, if they wanted, could go raise the capital fairly easily through traditional routes, but for whatever reason, or I guess for all the reasons that we spoke about earlier, how security tokens can be really useful, they decided to go and try and do a security token offering.

Yael Tamar (00:43:14):

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So like, for example, why haven't we done an STO for solid block, for example, right. So we are raising our seed round right now in a traditional equity way. So you could ask, why are you not using your own, your own product? And, and the answer is that, you know, we think that the security token, first of all, should be backed by some sort of a real world asset. You know, either you ha you're a, maybe a pharmaceutical company or you, you hold some patents, uh, that are ready to go, that you can maybe even sell to other people, right. Sellable, sellable, IP, um, or commodities or equipment. Right. All of that we're in security tokens, like one solid block reaches, uh, series B or C or, or beyond. And we have contracts that you can quantify, you know, relationships and let's say, uh, uh, uh, annual recurrent revenue of, of, uh, some Sable amounts, then we'll be ready to tokenize ourselves. Right. So, uh, when, when, when clients come to 99% of the clients that come to us, we turn away. Cause we don't think this is a good fit for them. And we don't wanna have these failed projects, even if they have the money to do it.

Will Szamosszegi (00:44:29):

Wow. That actually is very good to hear. Cause I mean, it would be easy for you guys to just take the extra clients, try and build it up, but you're trying to build seems like a reputation where yeah. When you get asked that question that I just asked you, you can say, yeah, I they're all, they're all complete in the, at least the soft cap. Like maybe, maybe more, I'm not sure what those exact stats are, but like industrywide, but if you're willing to turn away, a lot of those clients that you don't think would be able to raise the capital, then I think that that's, that's a smart, long term play.

Yael Tamar (00:45:02):

Thank you. Yeah. We've learned a lot. <laugh>, I've learned a lot. I personally worked with ICOs actually, um, you know, back in 2018 when I, um, was enamored with the industry as well, but I did work with some really good ones that are still alive and working and working really hard and successful. So, so that's good news. And I, you know, I worked with some that did reach the soft cap didn't deliver. Um, very few. I don't think I've actually worked with somebody who tried and didn't, didn't reach a soft gap, which, which was maybe a good, uh, due diligence on my part. Um, but you know, I've, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen that happen. I've seen that happen and I've heard about that happen and, and, you know, we all learned from that.

Will Szamosszegi (00:45:45):

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of, it still kind of blows my mind how much money was raised during that time. And people keep pointing towards regulations. I think that this is the other side of it where you want like accredited investor laws to protect the people, uh, who might just go and invest in these products that and companies that are not going to succeed. Yeah. I guess my, my question is, do you think that the sec should be doing anything else aside from adding those series level courses for accreditation? Or do you think that it we've kind of reached a, a sweet spot? I guess if, if you could change any part of the regulation, would you, or is there anything that you would advise that they try and do?

Yael Tamar (00:46:34):

That is a great question. And I haven't asked myself, you know, what, I, I, I try not to ask myself too many questions because then I have way too many ideas <laugh>. Um, but we are actually a part of the organization called the digital chamber of commerce and that they are the lobby group that goes and has, you know, weekly or daily. I don't know, talks with the regulators, uh, working it out. Uh, but, uh, you know, what I would do in general, I would actually utilize much more technology in trying to help people differentiate good projects with bad projects. I would enhance the capabilities of the SCC to provide information. I'll give you an example. You know, I had, uh, a lot of people calling me trying to sell me, uh, products to invest in lately. Right. So, so then what I usually do is I try to have a conversation with them.

Yael Tamar (00:47:27):

I don't hang up with them. I get their information, I get their company name and number and ask them to email me all of their information and licenses. At that point, I have their name, you know, and I Google it with a word scam next to it. And usually something comes out, but what comes out is not an SCC website. It comes some sort of a forum where people were looking for whether or not this product is a scam, but they sound so credible. You know, you're ready to send five, 10, $20,000 to these people. Right. So, uh, you know, and they usually use a name of a company that actually exists, but they change it a little bit, you know, instead of, they, something like that. Right. So, so then I tried reporting them to the SCC, which got me nowhere, you know, obviously they, they, they emailed back saying, thank you, you know, um, thank you. But we don't care. <laugh>

Yael Tamar (00:48:17):

<laugh> so, you know, you should do your own due diligence and, and thank you very much. So there there's really no, uh, like if I were them, I would create this like reporting culture, you know, use the, uh, uh, like use the knowledge of the, of the system and, and actually educate people much more about financial products instead of limiting them, uh, point blank from, from investing. So there's many things that I would do, uh, in, from, from the technology standpoint, definitely the move of the SCC to improve their credited investor, uh, is a great one. They they're increasing the crowd funding threshold to 5 million. I think they should increase it higher. I think 20 million would be better. Uh, and also I hope that they increase the threshold of how much an investor can put in these products. And also they should maybe create an asset class that's in between the crowd funding and the, in the 5 0 6 C.

Yael Tamar (00:49:10):

Um, actually there is one I should say, there is, uh, something that's called reggae plus exemption where you can raise money from, uh, from retail investors for up to 75 million. And also, uh, the threshold is, is, is not as low as crowd funding for individual investor, but that actually is almost as, you know, you almost have to write a full prospectus and it's very close to being an IPO. Um, so they should keep working on these exemptions and these standards. And I think they are doing a good job. They're doing a good job. Um, hopefully, uh, we'll see a lot of changes soon.

Will Szamosszegi (00:49:48):

Yeah. I mean, it, it's just hard to wrap your head around all these different op options, like been talking a lot about reg D but then there's is reggae, uh, the IPO and then reggae plus, is that exemption up to $75?

Yael Tamar (00:50:01):

No, they're both exemptions. There's a slight difference between reg a reggae plus. Uh, but yeah, they're not IPO like, you know, actually IPO is a really interesting concept because with an IPO you usually have an underwriter, uh, that comes and takes the risk, but they'll take a lot of money for that risk. And how do they make that money? They'll, they'll, they'll, they'll, you know, buy the risk at 75 cents on the dollar. And then when you do an IPO, uh, you know, you're selling it for high price and then they're making all the difference. So they're making a lot of money from these investors coming in, even at the IPO. Right. That's why, that's why, for example, Facebook, when it, uh, uh, launched or, or, you know, any company it's at certain level, I think maybe it was like 60, $80 per share, and then it like went down to, to almost nothing. And that's, that's, that's why, you know, people are, um, uh, the, the initial valuation is a little high, you know, and thankfully the product was good. So it's, it, it, it, it went out

Will Szamosszegi (00:51:02):

Rebounded pretty well, plus,

Yael Tamar (00:51:04):

Yeah, it's doing pretty well specifically, specifically that share. Uh, but, but that's the IPO, there's a lot of intermediaries that are making a lot of money. You know, it's a very cumbersome process and the investors are not seeing, uh, especially the LPs that, that invested money in, in the beginning are not, not seeing that those good returns. So a lot of companies are realizing that that staying private is good, but they want liquidity. So I think that's why tokenization is really, is really an amazing, uh, solution that's in between.

Will Szamosszegi (00:51:34):

Yeah. It's pretty incredible. Just talking through all these concepts, if you were to predict what this industry is going to look like in the future, maybe if you want to give like one prediction, that's a three to five year prediction, and then afterwards, your 10 year prediction, what would you say the industry's going to look like at those different intervals in the future?

Yael Tamar (00:51:58):

I think in five years, every single real estate fund is going to be liquid in my one way or the other. And, um, those that are not gonna be liquid or gonna stay behind for private equity, it's, uh, it's tricky. I think only the companies that really have some tangible assets are gonna, are, are gonna go for, for liquidity because, you know, users are gonna quickly realize that, um, it's hard to, to do trade if, uh, it's hard to trade, if you can evaluate something concretely, um, in terms of funds and yeah. Private equity funds and, um, and real estate funds, commodity funds, there all will be tokenized. I think maybe 50% of them will be tokenized in five years. And the majority in 10, unless there is a better technology and better way to do this, that, you know, that, that we invent, which I never wanna discount.

Will Szamosszegi (00:52:57):

Um, that is just so fascinating that, that prediction, yeah. So around 50 in

Yael Tamar (00:53:01):

Terms of volume, though.

Will Szamosszegi (00:53:02):


Yael Tamar (00:53:03):

In terms of, in terms of volume, there's $300 trillion worth of real estate right now in the world. And only 1% of that is liquid. So the opportunity is tremendous, right? And the liquid real estate is really the public reads that you see on stock exchanges, right? So we have 99%. That is, is, um, not tokenized, obviously not everything is gonna be tokenized, some, you know, village hus in, in Africa or, uh, you know, not even my apartment is probably not gonna be tokenized unless I move into some sort of a, you know, a big project. Uh, so, so let's say that even 20%, 20% is, is reasonable to expect for, for tokenization. And, and that already gives us, uh, 60 trillion trillion. So I, I think that we're gonna get to around a trillion in the next five years, and then sky's the limit. I hope within 10 years we'll get to full full five or 10.

Will Szamosszegi (00:54:07):

What is your favorite book?

Yael Tamar (00:54:11):

So if we're, if we're talking about fiction, that would be a catcher in the eye. And that's kind of a, a place where by JD Salinger where like a young teenager realizes that the whole world is much crappier than he thought it would be. Um, so I don't, I really don't know why I like that book. And then, uh, the <laugh>, but business wise, I really love pitch anything. And, um, flip the script by, or cl I think their, any business person who's selling anything, their company or any, or, or a product should listen to that book. At least I, I do a lot of, uh, audio books. Uh, and then, then I buy

Will Szamosszegi (00:54:51):

Them books are great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you, because it's, you can do it while doing so many other things. Like when, when you're driving, when you're just walking around, you can't like walk around while I guess you technically could walk around while reading a book, but it look kind of silly. Uh,

Yael Tamar (00:55:06):

I know <laugh> yeah, exactly. That's exactly why I'm doing this, you know, why I'm running errands. Um, so, so yeah, so, and, and so, or cl is fantastic. Definitely recommend

Will Szamosszegi (00:55:18):

Or cloth.

Yael Tamar (00:55:20):


Will Szamosszegi (00:55:21):

All right. Interesting. What do you think it is? You mentioned that you like business books. Like, I, I actually am, uh, very, very similar in that regard. Whenever I'm listening to books or, or reading books, they're normally kind of surrounding business. So I'm, I'm wondering why you, uh, choose to listen to, or read business books instead of fiction.

Yael Tamar (00:55:45):

Um, a lot of fiction lately started to bore me. I feel like things are repeating themselves. I do have some, uh, favorite authors, um, that I, that I would read when, when I, when I, when I see them somewhere in the shop and you know, why I actually think I have a better reason cause I don't fly anymore. So every time I would fly

Will Szamosszegi (00:56:07):


Yael Tamar (00:56:08):

Who's flying anywhere

Will Szamosszegi (00:56:10):

For the last six months. Okay. Yeah. That, that makes

Yael Tamar (00:56:13):

Sense. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't remember what was, you know, back then, but for the last six months, usually I would fly twice a week, twice a month. Sorry I would get on the plane and I would go buy a, buy a bookshop, buy a book and read that on the plane that doesn't happen anymore. So who has time or patience to sit down and read a book anymore. Right. And enjoy it. So, and so, so I really need, sometimes I just put my phone an airplane mode, pretend I'm on airplane just to get some work done. So that's, uh, you know, I definitely miss those plain reading sessions. Um, so then you have, you're left with business books that you, you listen to, you know, in your audio book while you're running errands, but, but really you wanna improve in what you do you wanna learn, you want and, you know, part, part of adult education, um, to, to, to part of getting ahead part of competition and ambition. Yeah. And also there's so many smart people, you know, I imagine myself sitting with or Cluff, like telling me his life story. So there there's so many smart people that you wanna learn from.

Will Szamosszegi (00:57:15):

Yeah. And there are also just so many topics too. Like that's the other thing I always feel like there's so much that I just don't know. And there's so much information out there and there's only so much time. So like, oh, well, if I have a little bit of time here and it's either just gonna be listening to music or I could be listening to this podcast about energy or, you know, learn about blockchain or great though.

Yael Tamar (00:57:38):

Yeah. Right. William. So what's your favorite, uh, let's say book or, or the recent recent book that you read?

Will Szamosszegi (00:57:45):

Yeah. Well, listen, there, there are a couple, I think that someone actually asked me this the other day. Um, but it just depends what the topic is. So I think one that's really interesting regarding technology and, uh, the, and potential future technologies was homo ideas, a brief, uh, history of tomorrow. I think that that's the exact name, read it a little while ago, but that book was just fascinating. Uh, and kind of this, this would take it down a whole nother rabbit hole, but it kind of made me start thinking about the world in a different way. So rather than like to take a step back, if someone first told me the concept of like simulation theory, I would've thought that it was the most crazy sort of theory that's ever been invented and it wouldn't make any sense for something like that to potentially be true. But then after reading this book, it kind of started to break things down more granular in a more granular way to the point where I was thinking, okay, well, uh, there are a lot of similarities and the assumptions to a theory like that actually could make some sense. So that was one that really just changed my thinking. Um, definitely would recommend pick it out out there. Yeah.

Yael Tamar (00:58:58):

Yeah. I'll check it out. Thanks.

Will Szamosszegi (00:59:00):

Yeah. <laugh> um, so are you a big movie person too? Or are you more so into the audio books?

Yael Tamar (00:59:07):

Yeah, I don't watch movies so much. I watch documentaries. I love, uh, watching documentaries, um, you know, anything related to money, um, anything related to, um, business business and, uh, sports <laugh>,

Will Szamosszegi (00:59:24):

What was, um, a recent documentary that you watch related to minor?

Yael Tamar (00:59:28):

So I I'm so bad with names really bad with names, but there was a documentary about the doping scandal in Russia. It was called, uh, ECOS.

Will Szamosszegi (00:59:40):

Yeah. Oh, that was recommended to me. I haven't seen it yet though.

Yael Tamar (00:59:43):

Yeah. Oh my God. I love it so much. Well, I come from Ukraine originally, so I can definitely relate, but, but the most I'm not gonna spoil spoil it for you guys cuz I think everybody should watch it cuz it's just fascinating. Uh, what was super interesting to me is the, the main character and why and the psychological motivation of, you know, coming forward and doing certain things. And it reminds me of certain politicians like staying in power to avoid jail, for example. So it's kind of like a similar type of rhetoric and it's, it's, it's uh, it's powerful coming out publicly with something, uh, to protect, you know, yourself is public is, is, uh, is very interesting. So definitely, you know, documentaries that are famous are famous for a reason. So, uh, you know, they're usually, they're usually very good. Yeah. I like, I like, uh, fiction movies that, that, you know, can be just advertising.

Will Szamosszegi (01:00:35):

Yeah. That's, that's fascinating. I have to go watch that. I actually I'm the same way as you. I don't normally read like fiction books or anything like that, but uh, anytime I watch a movie or, or just something on Netflix, it's always just, it's so entertaining. Like even, even like those documentaries and anything, I, I just am absorbed into it. I feel like when I start watching it, I could watch it for hours and hours and hours, which is why I normally try and avoid watching, uh, too much Netflix or too much TV just because it, it just draws me in so quickly.

Yael Tamar (01:01:11):

Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, it's an escape mechanism, right? You want to, uh, to do something your brain wants to switch off and you know, you have so much around you and uh, so many, uh, activities and impulses that you wanna switch off. It's normal.

Will Szamosszegi (01:01:27):

Yeah. Do you do any meditation or anything like that to try and like calm down all the different thoughts that that might come up?

Yael Tamar (01:01:39):

I used to, I used to do a lot of meditation. Um, I kind of recently got super busy. I do yoga. So like at the end of yoga, there's a little bit of meditation there, but thanks for reminding me. I need to, every day I say to myself, I need to get back to it. Uh, I need to get back to it. And, uh, there, there was all these series of like 30 day meditations, uh, which was by Deepak Cho by Deepak Chopra, which I really loved. Uh, and, and yeah, I highly recommend anybody to do that. You know, it's kind of makes you more beyond the clarity. It just makes you more grateful and thankful and you know, it really works. Definitely. Do you, do you meditate?

Will Szamosszegi (01:02:18):

Yeah, I was this, I used to do it a lot and then I stopped and then I started getting back into it and it's just every time I get back into it, I think why did I ever stop doing it? And then I always think back that it's because it, it does take time though. It is like getting into routine, like going to the gym. Like that's another one where once you are going every single day or meditating every single day, it's really easy to stick to it, but stop a couple of days and then it just keeps getting put off and then it's not even part of the routine anymore to do it

Yael Tamar (01:02:51):

For sure. Yeah, definitely. It's all about routine, but, uh, you know, as entrepreneurs, it's kind of difficult to just be left with your thoughts, you know, uh, and disconnect. It's, uh, it's really difficult. Uh, for me, you know, uh, as a Jewish person, I have a Saturday, uh, and I'm not a deeply religious person, but make it a rule, not to do any work for 24 hours. I mean, it doesn't include books for example, um, but not, not any actual work. Um, so it's, it's really helpful. Um, you know, I work 24 7 almost, you know, maybe 17, 18 hour days the rest of the week, but then one day it's just complete disconnect. Um, which is great. And, uh, and, and, uh, you know, uh, I wish I wish I could learn to do this for half an hour a day. I think it would improve my, my life tremendously. If I could carry the same, you know, go go for 18 hours and it take or 16 hours and it take one hour and do nothing, you know, meditate sports, you know, I do run, but then when you run, you still have the <laugh> have the thoughts going, you know?

Will Szamosszegi (01:03:59):

Yeah. Well, I think running that's actually, so like this was way back, but like when I was in high school and we go on these long runs, I think that you actually do, especially if you're running by yourself, you get into that meditative, uh, sort of state for a certain period of time. And even though the thoughts are still coming nonstop, it's almost like the same thing happens if you're just meditating, sitting down, it's almost like recognizing all those thoughts and then just letting them, you know, blow by with the wind. Yeah. But

Yael Tamar (01:04:30):

It is well and not so good at the running. So that's why I'm, uh, <laugh> when I get, when I get better, when I I'm trying to actually trained to do like this really, uh, uh, run with a group with a group me running group on, on the mountains in about a month and a half.

Will Szamosszegi (01:04:46):

Oh, wow. What's the distance that you're trying to go.

Yael Tamar (01:04:49):

So each of us, so we're not professional the professionals, uh, running around 16 kilometers, maybe 20 kilometers each, I think. Um, and I, I don't, I don't know. I don't remember anymore how to convert that into miles. Um, so we're gonna do around six to 10 kilometers, which is basically, you know, maybe twice, right. If I do two parts. So, so that's, you know, 10, 10 kilometers about an hour. So two, two different parts.

Will Szamosszegi (01:05:17):

Wow. And is that mostly uphill?

Yael Tamar (01:05:19):

It smiles, I think by miles, no. I mean, it's, it's different. Yeah. It's going through nature. Um, which is fun and day and night, it's supposed to be like this amazing experience. Right. So I've never done it. So it's the first time I, like, I have a rule that I have to challenge myself, um, like at least once a week to do something that I, that I'm afraid of. And like, maybe like once a month to do something that I've never done. So this is, this goes under the category of something I've never done. If you come to me and you're like, um, I don't know. Do you wanna, uh, go and learn skateboarding? And I'm like, yeah, cause it's, you've go the

Will Szamosszegi (01:05:58):

Category. That's a great attitude. <laugh> like, I just, I think that that's so great. You go, and you try all these new things like once a week and then once a month. Wow.

Yael Tamar (01:06:08):

Yeah, yeah. Try to, and that also forces me to say yes, I, so yeah, yeah. Sometimes right. Sometimes

Will Szamosszegi (01:06:17):

What are some of the crazy things that you've done that you might not have done because of, because of like that attitude.

Yael Tamar (01:06:25):

So, um, I don't know, like last week there was an open mic <laugh> in a, in a bar. So like I'm not a, not a, I'm not a singer. Like I know how to do do it and I can't sing, but not in front of the audience. So I probably would've never gone on, but then, like I said to myself, like, you're gonna regret it, cuz this is an opportunity, so you have to take it. And so, so I took it and it wasn't that horrible. Apparently it was okay. <laugh> but it was definitely frightening. Right. So I also started doing improv because of that. And maybe a few years back, I was in an improv group and um, you know, I, now when I go, I go on stage all the time I do these, you know, I teach classes and I go to conferences. It wasn't always like that. And I sucked so much, um, in the beginning, so bad. Uh, but you know, I forced myself to go on stage over and over and over again. So, uh, you know, thousands of times until, until it got it got better.

Will Szamosszegi (01:07:23):

Yeah, definitely. Well, on that note, I, this has been an unbelievable amount of fun, uh, everything that you're doing with solid block in the space, I think is just incredible, really, really useful for, uh, everyone in this industry. And I'm sure that, uh, it's going to continue to grow and be a really successful company. So thanks again for coming on before signing off. Is there any place online that everyone who's listening can connect with you?

Yael Tamar (01:07:52):

Is there a place online where they cannot connect with me?

Will Szamosszegi (01:07:55):


Yael Tamar (01:07:55):

<laugh> they can, you know, uh, if you Google Yelp Tomar, you'll see LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you know, whatever, whatever you guys, uh, like to use. Um, and, uh, and I'll be happy to speak with anybody, you know, uh, get on a call brainstorm if you have ideas, if you have questions, um, I I'd be happy to. And William, thank you so much for having me. It's really been fun for me as well, and I wish you lots of luck with whatever you guys are doing. You guys are doing great. Uh, the PO the podcast is great. So, uh, keep doing the good work.

Will Szamosszegi (01:08:30):

Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to this episode of the SaaS mining podcast. Be sure to follow us on social media and YouTube for the latest updates and previews of upcoming episodes, full episodes and transcripts can be found on SaaS every Thursday. If you want to hear us interview a particular guest on a future episode, please reach out to


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